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mc
"I think this would be a really boring echo chamber if we didn't have people challenging our POVs."
he didn't challenge anything he ranted on one topic, rev wright, which few people care about at this time. just trying to pickup some confused swing voters.
i asked him about his views on real issues and he seemed uninterested in that discussion. next time we should work to keep the issues center to our post BL show discussions

In defense of Peter and others: I think this would be a really boring echo chamber if we didn't have people challenging our POVs. I only hope he's sincere, not as eva suspects, a fake.

I think what I am trying to say about Palin may be too complicated for my limited means of expression. I only ask that people ask themselves if their reaction is more extreme and if it is, does it have anything to do with her gender? Or her Alaskaness? Or anything else about her that is different from you (me)? I think we are all guilty of this. All I do is ask. I do not purport to know what people are thinking. I find it interesting that when I ask I often get an even more agitated response. Which makes me wonder... I don't ask anyone to change their opinions. Only to ask themselves if the differences between us are amplified somehow when we disagree. It seems viral to me.

I think Obama will win because I think he actually wants it more. He keeps his eye on the ball in a more consistent way than McCain, who, if you read his history, is OK with defeat. Obama will need all the support he can get with the tall order he will have. I intend to give him that. I will, however, continue to criticize him when I think he is pandering or taking a dumb turn.

Gotta go. Parent/Teacher conferences.

seth & other regulars
i wonder about posters like 'peter.' he might post for a week or 2 then gone. but then there will be a new pro GOP poster to distract us next week.
i have a feeling it's the same GOP apparatchik under a new name.

mc, hjs, eva,

Palin's nomination has made me more sympathetic to Hillary Clinton. I still have concerns about her ethics, but the media's continuing habit of mentioning Palin and Hillary in the same sentence does a huge disservice to Hillary.

The gap between their respective intellects is the size of the Grand Canyon. If not for Bill's ego and secrecy regarding the donor lists for his library and foundation, I would have liked to see Hillary as Obama's running mate so that she could have totally wiped the floor with Palin in the VP debate.

eva,
You miss my point. I agree exactly about the sexism of the whole Palin nomination and agree with you about how it has set us back. It's like Bush Sr. nominating Clarence Thomas. But I am not letting the Dems off the hook for not dealing with their own sexism problems, thus leaving themselves open for this looking-glass moment.

seth,
I think he's going to win. I hope he wins. I agree with eva, just like the US to saddle the first black pres with an impossible job.

so seth,
If grumpy old mccain wins, which foreign consulate will you go to first to seek political asylum?

first sacto, now san bernadino has its own racist mailing

http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_S_buck16.3d67d4a.html

#197,

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for an Obama win. If that happens, I'll set aside a check to send to Palin's future Dem opponent for when she seeks re-election.
If Obama wins, I hope the Dem Party makes Palin's defeat a top priority. She's a rising star and I'd love to see her defeated before she can gain further traction.

seth
i don't WANT to settle for mediocrity for the Prez or the VP, either but this is not a dictatorship. we each only have one vote. the people seem to have no problem with mediocrity so sometimes we have to live with that. if that's what they want they have to live with the consequences, but maybe they'll save a few hundred on their taxes so they can buy that new ifone.

hjs, mc

I give both of you credit for projecting trouble for Obama's presidency.

I can't wrap my mind around the idea of him winning this election.

I still think the MSM is going to show McCain some love in the last few days of the race and dig up some scandal to torpedo Obama's chances and dash all the hopes of his supporters.

hjs, mc
I forgot to say:
WHOEVER comes in in January (provided the election does not go haywire and we have recount after recount into 2012) is going to be massively bleeped.
So like this country to give the first black president the country, after it's been throroughly trashed.
Not what our founding fathers had in mind...
okay, now I'm outa here...

mc,
I respectfully disagree. What so many women (look at the polls!) find offensive about Palin is not her gender, but the way it's being abused. By both herself and the GOP.

And not being abused for good - but being abused to attack two separate minority groups.

1) blacks
2) muslims

The hate she is whipping up is tenfold any sexist bias against her. I know you are familiar with some of these attitudes, both racist and sexist, through your work. Palin is not a "joke", she is a dangerous person, just the kind of demagogue the neocons will bring back in 2012, with a new set of talking points and an updated look.

I'm sorry to say this, because I respect your opinions, but I also think you are so p.o.'d about Clinton that it is clouding your vision of what is going on now. That said, I agree with you about more things that what I disagree with you on, and even if I didn't agree with you on ANYTHING, I still like reading your posts.
Okay, gotta go.

hjs, mc, eva

Palin's selection reminds me of Nixon's attempt to name Harrold Carswell to SCOTUS. Carswell's nomination was criticized because he was regarded as a mediocre judge.

Sen Roman Hruska defended Carswell's nomination: "Even if he were mediocre, there are a lot of mediocre judges and people and lawyers. They are entitled to a little representation, aren't they, and a little chance? We can't have all Brandeises, Frankfurters and Cardozos."
This speech was criticized by many, and Carswell was eventually defeated.

I don't want to settle for mediocrity for either the Prez or the VP

I'd like to see Palin out of public office and back in the ranks of the private sector ASAP.

seth

i'm just thinking of 1994 when clinton's hands were tied for his last 6 years following GOP congressional victories.

i'm not ready to give u the details yet

eva,
You might be right about Peter. But I can only take people at face value. Maybe he's (she's?) having a chuckle at my expense. But, hey, obviously I get something out of this or I wouldn't do it so much.

hjs,
I'm afraid I share your pessimism about what the new president will find in Jan and how he'll be perceived abut it all.

eva,
Please don't misinterpret what I say for sympathy for Palin. I also, did not bring up sexism, but the fact that you read (accurately) the concept in my question to me confirms that it plays a role. Both yours and seth's posts immediately following mine confirm for me that the reaction is out of proportion, and that is why I question it. I do not question the lack of qualification on her part or the nastiness of her positions, or her silly manner on TV. I just think that the left has gone over the top on it.

I also think that the McCain campaign is deeply sexist for thinking this was a fine choice that should make women happy. Please. You can't exchange one XX for another. But, I also think that the Dems have some soul searching to do and I think that this entire episode has set us all back 50 years (well, maybe 10 years.) I refuse to get all kooky about it. I do not support McCain because his policies are bad for me and my family. I don't like Palin because I like wolves and polar bears and I hate intolerance. But I will not act like the bad guys.

185 hjs
I'm still very skeptical of an Obama victory.

If Obama wins, my biggest concern is the ACORN story.
Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, etc. will use this scandal to try and delegitimize Obama if his margin of victory is very small.

What's your scenario for the GOP getting control of Congress in 2010?

seth
do u doubt she is representative of a demographic?
she's an american hero now.
I'd like to see her name herself to the senate after stevens is jailed.

mc,
with much respect for you, I gotta say that Palin does not in any way represent a "teachable moment" about sexist attitudes toward female politicians.

But this does not prevent her from playing the sex card with real abandon.

mc,
Palin is also a religious fanatic in my eyes. I don't want another religious fanatic in the White House.
She's someone who isn't intellectually curious and she's extremely proud of that fact. She was very defensive in the Couric interviews and I resented her childish indignation when asked very simple straightforward questions.

mc,
the fact that Palin thinks she can get away with a dearth of press conferences, or with winking, or with telling a sober Katie Couric, "I'll get right back to ya!" is an indication of her own deep sexism.
The refusal of people like Couric to accept that is actually an indication that we have not totally lost our bearings as women. As Couric herself said, "we gave her a lot of opportunities" to tell the American public what she thought. Apparently, thoughts have not a lot to do with the current version of Palin.

mc,
One more Palin criticism. She has the hubris to say "Who's the real Obama?" at rallies. Obama has been slogging thru this campaign since the Iowa Caucuses, has appeared in many debates, and has given many interviews.
Palin is too much of a coward to go on the Sunday morning shows, Nightline, or 60 Minutes. She needs to put her money where her mouth. She should let voters know who she is by going on these shows instead of just giving interviews to Hannity, Limbaugh, and other rt wing talk show hosts.

"I think Reagan, George W. Bush, and Dan Quayle are MENSA members when compared to Palin."

removing dan quayle from that list, I would agree

mc #174
At her convention speech Palin referred to the quote "we grow good people in our small towns". This comes from the columnist Westbrook Pegler who was a virulent anti-semite. He also expressed regret that FDR's would-be assassin missed him and shot the mayor of Chicago instead. He also expressed the hope that RFK would be assasinated. Thomas Frank has a column about Pegler in the WSJ and RFK Jr has an article about him on Huffington Post.
Unlike many viewers, I thought Palin's convention speech was a hate speech with her dripping contempt for community organizers and city dwellers.
Finally, I detest Palin because she strikes me as one of the dumbest politicians I've ever seen in my life. I think Reagan, George W. Bush, and Dan Quayle are MENSA members when compared to Palin.

i think palin was a great choice.
bush knew no thing and was elected (twice!) so the rove team try that trick again.
she has a great personality and an icon of rural right wing motherhood.
the earth is 600 years old and kids don't need sex ed and you won't pay taxes or get a modern nation under the GOP
if that's what the people want they should vote for that.

mc,
"Why is she not just another right wing nut who doesn't read the news much?"
Because she's the VP pick.
And she's stoking racial hatred.
And she won't even attempt to control the crowds at her rallies.
This is dangerous stuff, and I daresay that it is bending over backward to defend her on the subtle grounds of sexism, which I sense you are doing with your questions.
Having said that, I fully acknowledge that the world is a sexist place. For that reason, it's important to pick women on a non-sexist basis. When Rush Limbaugh is screaming "we got the babe!" over an unqualified newbie when you have plenty of TRULY maverick GOP female senators to choose from... well.
Was Christie Todd Whitman just TOO OLD? Or too much of an actual maverick?
We may never know..

Picking Palin over Olympia Snowe (or other qualified and experienced GOP women) is the ultimate pit-a-young-woman-against-a-mature-woman tactic.
It serves no women.
I gotta call it for what it is, and Palin gets no sympathy from me. (Except when she had that terrified look when faced with the 111-pound Katie Couric.

MC,
to answer your question as to why she is SO grating;
she lacks even the modicum of deference to the American public that W possesses.
Winking throughout a VP debate, trying to flirt her way through the Katie Couric interview... disgusting. An insult primarily to women who will be judged now as the ultimate token minority, because if Palin could get ahead...
I worry that, having seen the worst of the anti-Clinton stuff in Brooklyn, you are just having sympathy for Palin where it's not deserved. This is not about sexism. It's about people using sexism to promote an unqualified candidate OVER MORE QUALIFIED FEMALE REPUBLICANS. Very sexist. Sorry for the caps.
Seth says the same thing about my sentimentality over McCain. Undeserved.

seth,
Well, there you go. I had already decided against supporting McCain long before the Palin pick. I agree, her positions are repellant to me. But I have to gently ask: Why do you think she is SO grating? You are certainly not the only one with such a visceral reaction. Why is she not just another right wing nut who doesn't read the news much?

eva,
It may seem unlikely, however, I have seen unusual combinations of political views firsthand. I think many of us are used to catagories of political opinions that sound like the Dem and Repub platforms. There are really many shades and a lot of diversity. Someone who defends the war in Iraq as something that is necessary to national security (not my view at all), without dealing with the civilian deaths may think that others are myopic for supporting a right to abortion without dealing with the presence or lack of civil rights on the part of the unborn.

I actually am fascinated when I run across someone who is for gay marriage, abortion rights, separation of church and state, yet for gun rights and a fiscal conservative. It gets us all out of our ruts.

mc,
I plead guilty to having an extreme position regarding Sarah Palin. I'd never support McCain no matter who he chose as a running mate because I disagree with them on basically every issue, but there's something really grating about Palin.

I think that this Palin pick should automatically disqualify McCain because he willfully chose someone who isn't remotely qualified to be vp. There's the competence issue and the sleaze factor with the Trooprgate report. It was an obvious pander to rt wing extremists. There were several qualified women McCain could have chosen instead.

seth #157,
Honestly, I don't get into the Palin hysteria. And that is what it looks like to me. I do not think she would make a good president. But having lived through 8 years of Reagan and 8 years of GWB, that stuff does not scare me so much.

Peter,
I think you are right. Our issues are in a different order. I have a feeling on social issues you and I would see eye to eye. I cannot, however, condone the foreign policy of the last 8 years. Whether a McCain administration would look the same, honestly, I don't know. This was a year that I voted on issues that touched me daily.

hjs,
That is the longest post I have ever read from you. Way to go! :-)

seth,
I understand what you are saying but I do not think it is John Lewis' responsibility to behave in a strategic way for Obama's campaign. IMHO, he has earned the right to call it as he sees it. And on top of that, he did say he has stepped over the line. I think he is completely honorable, and I wish we had more like him.

There he goes again.
McCain on Fox News: "Sen Obama didn't tell the whole truth about his relationship with Mr. Ayers last night." - from Mark Halperin's Page on Time Mag website

Can anyone explain what the heck McCain is talking about? What more is there to know about this relationship and why didn't McCain make this point last night if he felt so strongly about it?

Peter,
Seriously? Who on this board didn't watch the towers fall? You make it sound like you're the only one with this tremendous insight.
We all had our lives turned upside-down by that event, especially those of us with family in the military. Just as innocent Iraqi civilians have had their lives turned upside down by our invasion of that country - which, btw, had no role in 9/11.
What you're not understanding is that the contest is no longer between "Obama and Clinton", as you continue to write.
It's between Obama and McCain.
And McCain, if you're concerned about our security, is a terribly unwise choice.

eva,
Don't forget about the chairman of the Virginia Republican Party who said Obama and Bin Laden have something in common because they both have friends who bombed the Pentagon.
http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/10/a_view_from_the_ground.html

#159, sf
good point, good analogy, tho every time I read my words twisted around by the person you're addressing, I realize that he's not really listening. No biggie.

seth,
I get your point about Lewis, but I wonder if it didn't work for McCain as well as he'd hoped.
I still feel that someone should have addressed what was going on - and who better than JL? On the other hand, maybe it wasn't the fact that he was addressing it, but the pointed way he addressed it. If he'd been less direct, it wouldn't have played well into McCain's hand. Having said that, I don't think it actually helped McCain to try to play the victim, given his overall performance last night.

SF,

Racism is always wrong. Doesn't matter how much racism or hate one has experienced.

Bottom line: Racism is wrong.

peter
assumption? I was just asking you a few questions.
so based on the last 7+ years you think another GOP team will be good for "national security?" NOW that's a very interesting assumption
true both parties, following the will of the people, are against gay marriage but the GOP is anti gay. hateful some would say. stone you in the village square if they could get away with it. shame we have laws and some human rights protection, to bad cheney didn't fix that, yet!
being popular in europe means we can be part of a team again & bush failed in georgia before anyone else did.
I don't care if obama is partisan, we have a 2 party system. better than 1 party systems, right?? elections have consequences
bush was a uniter also, I did not enjoy the last few years, my taxes did not go down as much as some people's
mccain plans on heading a team, the same GOP names that have run this nation into the ground. if he was a leader he would have pick someone who could have helped him govern, instead another cheerleader, to pick up a few swing voters. looks like 'americans' are finally ready to 'just say no.' want a modern nation you have to pay taxes.

MC,

I appreciate your views on this matter and I agree with some of your points. I voted Democratic most of my life and still do, but picking Obama over Clinton just does not seem responsible to me. I am not up on the mining act issue or free choice act but am impressed that you are voting on these issues. My guess is that Clinton would have shared Obama's views on most of these issues. But the Democrats are not nominaming folks who are strong on foreign policy and the thing is, I live in NYC and I watched the towers fall. Terrorsim and destrcution is real. We live in a porous, unsafe world, and I don't trust Obama to be tough enough on these issues. Heck, McCain stands up and says real smart things about protecting the borders without punishing illegal immigrants. Heck, he recenltly got yelled down on this topic by a republican crowd. I value and appreciate your thoughts on this and as you said, I jsut thinik our core issues are different, or are in a different order maybe.

mc #157,

Would you feel comfortable with Sarah Palin a heartbeat away from the presidency?

eva,
I think there has been a lot of frustration on the part of McCain supporters that unaffiliated Obama supporters get away with a lot of nastiness, while he seems to float above it. I've seen some of this myself. This does not in ANY way excuse what they did in Sacramento, what can they have been thinking? Honestly! If you want to be one of the good guys then act like it!

There has also been really disturbing nastiness against Obama by unaffilateds (this is now a noun?). Again, I see more of an implied threat there, but I also understand the frustration of the other side.

Peter-
What you said- ("I supposed that people who are abused as children should be allowed to abuse others?") doesn't fit with the model of what we are talking about.

What does work is this- "Children who suffer abuse are not allowed to speak out against it?"

Reverend Wright experienced racism and he is speaking out! not beating up white people. Or anything like what the KKK has done.

mc and eva,

I respect John Lewis but his remarks were politically very stupid because they allowed McCain to turn the entire hate speech narrative on its head and enabled him to portray himself as the victim of a smear attack.

Of course, the things said at McCain Palin rallies were much worse than Lewis' remarks but McCain was able to establish some sort of parity by claiming hurt feelings and calling for Obama to denounce Lewis' remarks.

Whoops, that one got away!

Peter,
Let me try this again. I think your criticisms of Obama are fair and that your choice of McCain is equally fair; indeed, members of my own family are making the same choice. It comes down to where the candidates stand on issues that are important to you. Your issues are national security, at least I think that's what you said. Mine are equal pay for equal work, the Employees Free Choice Act,and sensible rules of the road in the financial sector that are actually enforced. I am not a fan of Obama's energy positions, his no vote on repealing the 1872 mining act or his health care plan. But in my mind, McCain's positions are not better and in some cases are worse.

AWM,

Actually, I did (and still do) accuse you of apologizing for and tolerating racism. I live in NYC and have many far liberal friends, heck most of my social views are far left. But when doctors and lawyers tell me that folks like Rev. Wright are allowed to be racist, well, that is where I draw the line. Racism is not liberal, it is just racism. White guilt is not a reason to accept hate and intolerance.

So, when someone like Wright experiences racism, our world should just say, "Now you have the right to be racist yourself"?

I supposed that people who are abused as children should be allowed to abuse others?

Understanding racism should never lead to toleraring racism. Liberals seem to think so, I don't. Racism = bad, so weird that such a simple, above reproach attitude offends you.

Is there a new liberal handbook somewhere I can read? I want the chapter explaining why racism is good.

Seth,
What's amazing to me is that the Republicans have had an opportunity to build up their candidate - to highlight what he could actually do. Instead, it's been all negative, all the time. With the VP they chose, they can't really make an argument for what SHE might do, because her record is so spotty.
I had a long talk with Hector Barajas, of the California Republican Party. He did take my points, and threw out a few of his own, namely pointing out that Republican students have been "beaten up" for supporting McCain. I told him that IF that had occurred it was deeply, deeply wrong, but there is a big difference between what unaffiliated individuals do, and the house organ of the GOP in the county of Sacramento, in the "civilized" state of California, actually going to the trouble of making a graphic that endorses torturing the first viable black presidential candidate who happens to be some 14 points ahead in the polls. God forbid something happens to Obama, these guys are going to have blood on their hands.
I said, "are you not making the connection between these types of attacks and the fact that your candidate is so far behind in the polls?"
He pointed out that McCain himself had spoken out against torture, and I said, "That's EXACTLY why this advertisement was so wrong." Doh!
To be fair to Barajas, he spent a full nine minutes on the phone considering my points, and I'm not a member of the media. I hope to God it means they're firing the head of the Sacto chapter.

Peter,
I didn't exactly say that it was "good," although I can see why you thought I was saying that. I was trying to say rather clumsily, that this kind of preaching serves a purpose. Many of the actual things that came out of Wright's mouth were awful, and I hated the way he treated the poor moderator on the Press Club. But I have heard this rhetoric before, and I don't really think that it sows hatred in the congregations, indeed, in my experience these churches are very warm. I think that it makes a difference who says the epithets and where they say them. Take the guys in Times Square as an example. The black Israelis who rail on and on in a really racist manner are just tolerated. If the KKK came and did the same thing it is hard to imagine it wouldn't start a riot. That may look like a double standard, and that charge may be fair. But I think there is less of an implied threat. Historically, who has suffered more racial violence?

Peter,

No, he's unhappy with the US government and white people. I never said it was OK, but I understand it. I was acknowledging the racism that Wright endured as a reason for his diatribes.

For some reason, you have trouble reaching that conclusion or any other that isn’t a cardboard cutout of a thought.

You’ll accuse everyone who disagrees with you of “ignoring the racism” of Wright and your perceived racism of Obama (who had a white mother!). Meanwhile, you ignore the racism that stoked the anger of Wright.

“keep it up! Ignore racism!”

I’m done. I’ve had enough of catering to your victim hood.

MC:

I see, so racists of the world only have to say, ""liberation theology", and then we are all supposed to say, okay, now racism is good.

Racism = bad. It is not that complicated. Should we accept fascism too if we give it a fancy Dan name? Me thinks not.

From Sully's site:

David Frum on McCain raising Ayers:
"Ayers is repellent. It's awful that Obama kept company with him. And yes it's true his characterization of the relationship is less than forthright. Still, in the midst of today's financial panic, I cannot help thinking that trying to win this election by hitting this theme is a little like Herbert Hoover trying to save himself in 1932 by pointing out that Gov. Roosevelt had signed a petition in favor of Sacco and Vanzetti ..."

eva,
I agree about John Lewis. He carries an awful lot of moral authority with me because of what he has been through in his life. He understands better than anyone about the implied threat in those shouts. I also think it is a little disingenuous of McCain to come off so hurt -- this is a guy who voted against the King holiday. Yes, I know he appologized for it and that is good, but he needs to be building credibility in that department, not assuming it is his due.

Seth,
I think you might be right about Lewis' remarks, but I'm not sure. I just think it would have made McCain look better to independents if HE had called Palin and her supporters out on those overheated comments at the rallies.
It's sad that it took John Lewis to do it. Someone had to say SOMETHING, otherwise it was like ignoring a grassfire.

Leo from Queens #97,
If you are still listening -- I would love to know your sources. I know that the Repub Party was behind all Central American awfulness, but honestly I was not aware of McCain back then. Was he specifically supportive or just passively?

eva,
That is horrible what the Repubs in Sacromento did. Disgusting. I hope you read them the riot act.

Peter in Sunset Park,
Anyone who reads my posts here knows I am not an Obama fan, despite the fact that I intend to vote for him because his positions on things that are important to me are closer to mine. But the Wright thing, really, can we let it go? What he preaches is called "liberation theology." I have heard it before. I have even been present where it was being preached. I believe it is deliberately provocative in order to knock people out of their comfort zones. This can be useful for all of us. Not asking for an appology from you or anyone else, not offering one either.

Peter,
Congrats on accusing people on this board of saying and believing things that they neither said nor believe.

hjs,
maybe you're right, but today they are deciding on whether to force the head of the Sacto chapter to resign over this "mistake". I'd like to see the head of the Sacto chapter walked out of his office, accompanied by a burly Joe-Wurzelbacher-type security guard. This is a good time to apply a little encouragement in that regard - if only to help these guys preserve whatever dignity they have left. Not much, I'll admit, but I believe in goodwill.

The number of the Sacto HQ has been changed (too many calls from irate moderates), the new number is available by calling the old number and waiting for the announcement. (I would post it, but I think it might be against WNYC posting rules.)

The Seth Angle,

Make comments and pretend they mean something different when you get corrected. Angle, angle, angle...

Where is the substance Seth? Scared to have a real discussion?

Me thinks so.

peter
i don't see how you are jumping to these conclusions about some of the posters.

if I can take a step back how does rev wright affect your life?
you seem pro gay but mccain & the gop are very anti gay.
are you just anti-tax? who pays for the roads you drive on.

AWM,

So, your logic is, Rev. Wright is unahppy with the US govermnent, therefore, preaching hate against Jews and whites is okay.

And you all think this topic is done? It hasn't even started.

White guilt is bad because it has dulled liberals into accepting and tolerating racism.

SF: What stand will you take now? Will you go back to pretending you do not know what white guilt is or will you stick with your current understanding of white guilt? I await your next angle.

Peter from Sunset Park,

You shouldn't take everything so literally.
Have you ever heard of sarcasm or being tongue in cheek?
Calling McCain's choice of Palin criminally insane was meant as a joke.
Palin is McCain's way of playing a joke on you.
Homophobia and creationism are both wrong.

You didn't answer my question.
If Obama wins, which foreign consulate will you go to in order to seek political asylum?

Peter,
Congrats on accusing people on this board of saying and believing things that they neither said nor believe.
You're a winner! Of what, I don't know...

hjs,
maybe you're right, but I'd like to see the head of the Sacto chapter walked out of his office, accompanied by a burly Joe-Wurzelbacher-type security guard. This is a good time to apply a little encouragement in that regard - if only to help these guys preserve whatever dignity they have left. Not much, I'll admit, but I believe in goodwill.

The number of the Sacto HQ has been changed (too many calls from irate moderates), the new number is available by calling the old number and waiting for the announcement. (I would post it, but I think it might be against WNYC posting rules.)

Seth,

I see, now people who disagree with you are criminals who need to apologize. I am not a big Obama supporter (heck, I have many concerns with McCain too), but I don't think that people who think differently than I do are criminals.

I support gay marrage, which Obama and Biden do not (same as the republicans), but I don't think Obama and Biden are criminals for their lack of backbone on issues of human rights. Heck, I voted for Clinton twice but didn't call him a criminal for discrimianting against gays in the military. Don't ask tell is a disgrace, but criminal? No. Smart? No. You really mean to tell me that hating gay people is okay but believing in creationism (which I don't) is wrong? Oh, now I see it. You are okay with Obama's intolerance becuase you can relate to intolerance. So clear now.

I guess all people who think differently from you Seth should be held in jail until they apologize. Funny!

eva
i think is more fun to watch them self-destruct.

the California GOP like the NY GOP is going extinct. a party of 19th century ideas in a 21st century world. their crazed desperation gives me such schadenfreude

#132

Thank you for your comment.

Just to be clear on Wright, he was expressing the anger of African Americans of his generation. Segregation, institutional racism, etc. We know the story...

I don't agree with his presentation, not constructive, self indulgent, but I think that if I served in this nation's armed forces and returned home from that service to a society than treated me worse than garbage I'd be pretty furious.

Just to be clear on Obama, his mother was white.

Peter from Sunset Park,
I have never demanded an apology from any commenter to this board.

The only person I ever demanded an apology from is John McCain for his criminally insane decision to choose Sarah "I'm a creationist who can see Russia" Palin as his running mate.

@ 127

Yes.

Peter,
It's pretty clear that if you're still hung up on Wright (a DECORATED Vietnam veteran who EARNED his right to criticize his own government) amid the collapse of the US financial system, then there's not much I can do to help you.
Good luck and godspeed, you're going to need a little bit more of it than the rest of us.
Charitably,
Your Fellow American

sf
so are you saying rev wright was talking about racism in american, it's history, it's impact even today and he was expressing anger and fear that many black american feel today?

If anyone has not called in a polite complaint to the California GOP HQ over the Sacramento chapter's website that advocated waterboarding Obama, please do so now. I have now made several calls requesting the resignation of the head of the Sacto chapter, and a full denunciation by the California GOP.

Their numbers are available through a google search. Here is a link to the article about the offensive "political advertisement."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/10/15/state/n110647D09.DTL&hw=sacramento+republican+party&sn=004&sc=696

Peter,
White guilt has nothing to do with my argument. Thats why I brought it up and asked what you meant by it?

Eva,
I heard the story about the Sacramento repub Party. It's truly disgusting.
I admire John Lewis, but I really wish he would have kept his mouth shut. His remarks gave McCain a golden opportunity to play the victim card. Lewis should have known better and just let the news cycle play itself out.

Peter,
Pardon me for being patronizing, but under the circumstance of your neglect to understand what Im saying I cant resist. Ill say it again and maybe you will respond to it as if you were trying to understand instead of simply ignoring truths.

Wrights does not preach racism. He preaches about how this country still has racist elements deep within it.
Third times the charm I hope.

Peter from Sunset Park,
If Obama wins, which foreign consulate will you go to first to seek political asylum?

If McCain wins, but dies in office, don't come crying to me about your concerns over Sarah Palin's lack of preparedness to handle the 3am phone call. I warned you about her inadequate background.
Being VP requires more skills than simply knowing how to field dress a moose!

Peter,

Ideas?

(cue Jeopardy theme music)

hjs,
I second you.
NEXT!

peter
it might be important, it's been discuss here for months.
just it's not on many peoples top 10 list right now.
obama is not rev wright
this nation needs a leader who can look forward not back.
NEXT

SF:

You want to know what racism is and what white guilt is? I love your strategies, they are so funny. Pretend you don't understand common words to dismiss ideas. Anything not to discuss ideas huh? Pretty soon you are going to ask me what "is" means.

AWM - I see, you dismiss racism by saying it is old news. The ole dismiss rather than discuss. You also dismiss the point by talking to someone else about it, not me. Your strategies are so cute, keep it up! Ignore racism! Refuse to discuss. You rock.

Eva - you are cool, you say my brain is small. So progressive and civil of you. But I understand your poor behavior - the moderators here encourage liberal bad behavior. Not your fault you have been trained to be rude.

SF - you are wrong. I understand racism as just that, racism. To quote your patronizing and uncivil tone, "Is this too much for you to understand? too complex of a idea?" I don't blame your rude tone either SF - WNYC only moderates the right, not the left, so you must feel encouraged to be rude. BTW - does it make you feel good to suggest that other people are simple minded because they disagree with you? Pretty soon you will be like Big Seth asking everyone to apoligize for having different opinions. Seth is silly like that.

Moderators: Please delete my comments but keep the ones calling me names - that is your style, keep it up!

eva

well black people use 'the n word' all the time so maybe those midwest folks like him & they are using the nice meaning of 'the n word' i'd have to see the context.

so it has to get bad before people wake up?
shame on us!

Seth,
Thank you! But I think you're right, this is not in the bag, the media can only gain by drumming up some weird, lost videotape or something.
I spent part of yesterday on the phone with the California GOP headquarters over their failure to call the Sacramento Republican Party on the carpet more forcefully for what the Sac. group ran on their website.
If you didn't see it, it was an image comparing Obama to bin Laden, and the words "Waterboard Obama" with red white and blue graphics between Waterboard and Obama.
I told them that by doing this, they had smeared what remained of the reputation of the Republican Party. I asked if they had any control over the Sacramento chapter. They said they had control over the chapter, but not over individuals in the chapter. What rot...

hjs,
I agree. I have read reports of people in the midwest who call Obama the n-word BUT are voting for him. (That was in George Packer's New Yorker article from a week ago.) I posted something else for you and Seth late yesterday that showed something similar - Republicans who are so fed up with their party that they are voting for Obama. I think the money quote was something like: "I'm going to hate Obama as soon as he gets into office, but I'm voting for him, because the Republicans now make me sick." That was a quote from a white conservative voter.
So people are finally voting on the issues - their economic survival. Cuz baby, that's all it's about right now...

@111

i agree 100%
but, baby steps i guess.

#110 Eva,
Very well stated, as usual.

i think the voter is being motivated to vote for obama for selfish reasons,
because they know the GOP will not be helping the working class. it would have been great if people could vote for BHO & progress, instead of against the GOP

i'm happy to see him win but this is not a great leap forward. it's merely out of fear.

Peter,
Anyone who's familiar with this board can tell you that I'm more angry with the Clintons than with W.
But my personal (and significant) distaste for W isn't the point here.
The real point here is what the American people think.
Right now you have a situation where nobody cares about Wright. Why? Because most people with brains larger than peas understand that there are more important and urgent issues facing the nation.
If you think a federal deficit greater than 10 trillion is unimportant next to what some crazy preacher said, well, you are not alone. On the other hand, you are in a tent that is shrinking by the minute (or by the daily percentage drop in the Dow.)
Wake up. Smell Coffee.

Peter,
you are incorrect. there is a difference between preaching racism and testifying to the fact there is racism in this country.
Is this too much for you to understand? too complex of a idea?

@104
Peter-
"SF - You are incorrect, Rev Wright did preach racism. We have all seen and heard the clips, I guess I just don't share your white guilt."

What does this mean? white guilt?

hjs #101,
I think the media will do whatever it can to insure that this contest has the most dramatic conclusion imaginable. Rt now, they're all saying it's Obama's race to lose.

What better ending could they script than for McCain to pull even 2 or 3 days out from Election Day? I think they'll dig and dig until they find some sleazy story to pull down Obama's numbers just in time to give McCain that last jolt to pull ahead of Obama in the final hrs of the campaign.

@ 103
But it sounds like you think the reasons he will be elected are illegitimate. Is this true?

Seth,

If you have no faith in lazy, uninformed voters you shouldn’t waste your time and energy arguing with one over the coverage of Rev. Wright who was the talk of the nation months ago. That story had its day, now it’s just a crutch to lean on for those who are desperate and without any actual substantive ideas.

SF - You are incorrect, Rev Wright did preach racism. We have all seen and heard the clips, I guess I just don't share your white guilt.

Eva - Bush can be smart or not so smart, but either way, when a presidential candidate attends a racist church for 20 years, that is a story. Your distaste for Bush doesn't wash away Obama's sorid past. Obama rose to senator by playing Chicago politics and keeping mum while whites were blamed for inflciting AIDS upon blacks. How you can ignore that because you don't like Bush just doesn't seem logical to me.

Seth - it took Obama 20 years to decide that racism is wrong. I expect him to have a great distaste for racism. Please apologize for thing differently then me - that is your style right? You are the Seth that demands apologies when folks disagree with you?

sf
my point to seth is the BHO might win.

@101
hjs from 11211

Those fears you mentioned. those are legitimate reasons why we should vote for someone who will change them. Even if its just a bit.
So what is your point?

seth
even I, who never thought that this racist country would ever vote for a biracial african american, have to say BHO might just win, thanks to the selfish american electorate, who's scare to death that their way of life is coming to an end, due to the greed, waste and corruption of the last 7+ years.

#97

The media would actually be doing its job for once if they ever did investigate this.

#97 Leo Queens,
This deserves closer scrutiny but I'm not holding my breath. The media doesn't have the guts to pursue this story.

#97
an excellent point

Guys. - McCain has close association with Terrorist groups -He supported the Contras in Nicaragua and the Death Squads in El Salvador.

Not only were thousands of innocent civilians killed and terrorized by these terrorist groups, Americans were targeted and assasinated. McCain in the 80's supported the terrorists who kidnapped, brutally raped and tortured American nuns in El Salvador. I think it is a closer association to terrorists when you support and rationalize these violent activities while Obama denounces Ayres while he was only 9YO and worked with him on education. NOT in promoting his terrorist activities as McCain did

[86] Zak,

EXACTLY!

90 AWM
I have no faith in the majority of my fellow voters to educate themselves and do the research to make informed decisions. I wish the lazy, uninformed voters would just move to another country. It's annoying to see so many voters daydreaming or sleepwalking thru this campaign without lifting a finger to learn anything.

91 Peter from Sunset Park
The media's love affair with McCain predates it's affair with Obama. Obama has repudiated Wright's offensive remarks. What more do you expect him to say or do about Wright? Obama explained his ties to Ayers. What more will it take to satisfy you?

Mark my words, the media will push McCain across the finish line.

irresponsible lending, irresponsible borrowing. end of story. Anyone like myself (appraiser) who got in the way was swept aside. Continues today, new legislation (HVCC) will insure that it will continue in the future no matter what any politician says.

Peter,
That hasn't been a story since the rest of America woke up to the fact that 7.5 years of Bush have trashed our economy and trashed the reputation of our free market system. (And that's not even counting what Clinton signed into law, between repeal of Glass Steagal and the Commodities Futures Modernization Act.)

Last night in the debate there was a heated exchange over this whole thing about negative ads. Although I would never claim to be the first person to bring up the history of attacking one’s opponent “semi-slanderaly” (I just coined that term by the way), this is obviously nothing new. There was, however, a strange coincidence for me last night. After the debate I went to bed and read a chapter from a book that happened to be talking about the election of 1828. Using the attack advertisements of the day, pamphlets (so I guess they could be refered to as attack pams), Andrew Jackson’s people accused John Quincy Adams of acting as his maid’s pimp while in Russia years earlier. Instead of taking the high road and being the more refined party as they were considered, Adams’ crew claimed that Jackson’s mother was a prostitute. Just a bit of perspective I guess.

Peter,
First of all reverend Wright did not preach racism. From what I have heard he is simply saying whats on the minds of many black people around this country. Yes there is still deep racism in this great country and there are great inequality and America has a troubled past around race issues.

So stop this story line Wright's preaching of racism. It makes me sick!

hey joe do your part. paying taxes is the price you pay to live in a modern nation.

Get ready for the dirtiest 3 weeks in the history of presidential elections!

Joe the Plumber will be co-hosting Brian's show next week and expect to see him on Leno, Letterman, Stewart, and Colbert before Election Day.

Be good to your plumber. Society tends to break down when it can't flush.

Seth,

No, I don't think the media is liberal, I think they are simply in love with Obama. This is the same media that through the Clintons to the wolves how many times? No, not liberal, just in the Obama camp and blind to his many deep, deep flaws. Sure, McCain is pro life (and I am not), but I can respect the differences I have with McCain. But it shouldn't take republicans to remind us about Obama's racist preaching church and ties to an American terrorist. These are real issues that the media has all but ingored until the right screamed and kicked enough. Since when is attending a racist church for 20 years and running for president not a story?

74 Seth,

I don't have any control over the media. If I stood between them and a dollar to plead for more substantive reporting I would be trampled.

The severity and complexities of the problems our country faces should force its citizens to become better informed and, thus, more focused on the trajectory of the country. Iraq and the current financial crisis were not overnight phenomenon, they gained momentum over time in an environment where those with power had bad and selfish intentions and the public at large didn’t have a clue. People have to be proactive rather than reactive. They should enjoy accumulating knowledge in order to be prepared rather than acquiring the bare minimum necessary for a tit for tat spat.

#80,

I was being sarcastic...pointing out that spending more money than anybody in history is a pretty meaningless statement. I don't feel that Obama has been as pervasively negative as McCain.

As for why you haven't seen them, we're not exactly an important market for either campaign: Obama knows he has New York; McCain knows he doesn't stand a chance in New York.

Ohh got it HJS! Good one, I was a little slow on the uptake, need lunch brb.

@ #66 SF in nyc: thanks!

@87 Drora: The free market works well for craftsmen, when eveyone else in encouraged into the corporate education machine. There is a UK TV-show "Posh Plumbers" which shows their life, kind of like "Cribs" - you'll see it on you-tube! Good for them, I say.

#83, hjs
good one
but who really is Joe Wurzelbacher?

LOL

HJS #83 - I don't know what that means but right on!

Ik ben een Plumber

A few comments have been edited or removed for violating the WNYC posting policy. Remember to keep your comments civil, on topic, and productive to the discussion taking place on the air.

ich bin ein Plumber!

It is correct, Senator Obama told him face to face the first $250k will be cut 50%.

@75 Lew Monetti: What does this have to do with Obama? Nothing.

He holds left wing views, with do not resonate with many Americans. As do many teachers, social services workers etc. You will find plenty of right wing views which do not resonate with many Americans coming from talk radio and these to represent a fringe. Is McCain responsible for these?

Are you responsible for the actions of people you know through association? Does everyone you associate share your view on everything? Look in the mirror before you accuse.

@70
Zak,
If obama has spent so much on "negative adds" why dont i ever see them? I dont watch tv that much so I dont see any adds first hand, but the "negative adds" I do see being reported on come from McCains camp.
please explain......

Is it true that when discussing nuclear energy McCain said, "Senator Obama is concerned about safety" as if this is a bad thing.

Senator Obama was so gracious, he even told the man, even if I don't get your vote I will be working hard on your behalf. I am done with the Joe the P topic!

Looking at the video, Joe the P! Smiling and shaking hands with the Senator. Gets on a phone interview with Fox News and slams Senator Obama, coward, Oh I wasn't star struck he says..yeah whatever! A plant like I said.

don't for get Thomas Jefferson said John Adams was a hermaphrodite

The Bill Ayers / Barack Obama relationship has existed and it should have been more meaningfully explored by the news media. Two interesting articles on the subject; one is the Bill Ayers speech in Venezuala in 11/06 and the other a more recent op-ed piece.

http://billayers.wordpress.com/2006/11/
http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon1006ss.html

#65 AWM from UWS,
I agree with your point about voters doing their homework beforehand but I think you're letting the CPD and the TV networks off too easily.
3 90-min debates is a joke when you consider the complexities of the problems the country faces and the enormous responsibilities that the President has.

Well Zak #70, I guess he should know, after all he was there!

Obama's spent more money on negative ads more than anyone EVER?! EVER?! More than Ulysses S. Grant spent on smear handbills? More than Millard Fillmore spent on negative sandwich board sign men? More than Rutherford B. Hayes spent on men with bullhorns!?

@48,

Thank you for your blessing. It means so much to us that you took the time to float down and let us "people" know that even though you know that we're all wasting our time that you wish us luck all the same.

How noble of you...

I'm happy the debates are over. I want Obama to be elected already so we can get on without all the drama.

They didn't say anything new last night.

[53] the truth

word!

@#50 Gramsci
Thanks for you comment. These are questions which I find more relevant than anything i've heard on the campaign trail so far.

Blah, blah, blah...

Everyone complains about the debates,

"Let's change the debates!"

"We should have more than 3 debates for the first time in 48 years because McCain said so!"

Everyone complains about the content and repetitive talking point nature of the debates. They are that way because, unfortunately, a vast number of Americans cannot, will not or are too lazy to make an honest effort to inform themselves on the policies of the candidates. The information is out there, you can supplement the debates by paying attention, remembering what mattered to you and doing some research regarding such matters.

Or you could be like Joe the Plumber and expect the candidates to personally explain themselves to you regarding your specific situation which is impossible.

Or you could just parrot talking points, exaggerations and rumors which is the domain of the super-lazy.

I'm having withdrawal symptoms with no more debates to watch.
Could the CPD have chosen 3 worse moderators than Lehrer, Brokaw, or Schieffer? These guys were pathetic. Freshmen high school students couldn't have done any worse.

The Ayers thing IS racially charged. Note the plurality when Palin says, "palling around with terrorists." It may be a stretch, but to many McCain-Palin supporters, terrorist(s) = Muslim. It's sad, but if McCain-Palin meant to draw the distinction, they fell far short.

Hi,
What I want to know from McCain is what money will be used to buy up the bad mortgages? Taxes? I'd like to know with what money he plans to do anything with?
Thanks for comments.

Here's a link to the full encounter with Obama and Joe Wurzelbacher, the plumber. It's much ado about nothing. At most Joe's taxes would go up $800 this year and he probably benefit more from Obama's breaks for small business.

It's hardly the crushing of the American Dream McCain portrays.

http://www.youtube.com/v/ElPBxiVxVEw&hl=en&fs=1

Chris @ #46 then what the heck is he doing having a conversation, pleading his case to Senator Obama?

mc [25],

have you heard either candidate address specificaly urban issues (i.e. mass transit, etc.)in this campaign? in any national campaign? you won't until our votes count as much as someone in iowa or nabraska's.

until then we will continue to pay farmers not to plant crops, and subsidize 24/7 air conditioning in nevada, while getting nothing from the feds until the next time we take a hit for the good ol' usa.

Of course it's all a code for race!! I'm surprised that Bill Ayres hasn't launched a law suit against these guys for defamation of character.

Character attacks and that smirk are distractions!

# 35 , Maya

LOL! That's great!:)

some of these comments are too long!

Obama did not appear "irritated," as you assert.

He appeared unflappable and bemused, in the face of McCain, who evidently thought he had come to play pinata -- blindfolded, swinging wildly, but never landing a punch.

Sure Brian, there seems to be a disconnect b/c mccain and his people keep bringing up the same old arguments that he has answered to before! A person can get weary defending against the same old issues! mccain refuses to move forward and address the economy for more than 10 seconds!

This fear mongering around the label of "socialist" is a decoy (based on remnants of cold war fear) used by the republicans to obscure the fact that their policies have always favored the rich. Why are we not talking more about the war and the financial black hole that it has burdened this country with. What justifies spending trillions on a war while children still have no healthcare, while our public schools are failing and while our prisons are becoming virtual criminal training camps. If we really want to fear a centralized "socialist state" then why are we not more weary of handing the Bush administaration so much power by greatly expanding the role of the executive office? Doesn't Cheney's notion of such a powerful executive branch resemble Communist Soviet policy or Maoist China more than the egalitarian progressive policies of the Democratic Party? What does Socialist mean actually? Does it mean spending OUR tax dollars on educating OUR children? Giving the people healthcare? Is it more "free" more "democratic" to hand huge checks to banks and corporations? to create the biggest prison system in the world and a giant failing war machine?

Yeah Josh! What does Bill Clinton's issues have to do with the price of tea in china? He is a totally different human being, Senator Obama is another.

This debate was a joke, How any of those two candidates appeal to anybody, I have no idea. The best example of this, is when they were asked what programs were they going to cut because of the increasing deficit, and guess not not a straight answer from both of them. Good luck people,

people get the government they deserve.

Spot on Laura, autism down syndrome all the same to mccain b/c palin is also another failed campaign strategy! He knows zero about either illness.

Sorry, but Joe the P. IS registered to vote, as a Repub, and voted in the primary, according to the Toledo Blade (his hometown paper)

I think McCain is confused about Sarah Palin's baby. He kept mentioned Autism, but her baby has Down's Syndrome.

Come on, people, I'm so sick of "liberal media". Let me remind you, that it was the media who went after Bill clinton for lying about sex, but not after Bush for a WAR. Both the IAEA and UN gave Hussein a "B" for cooperating. The Times sat on the eavesdropping story for a year, then apologised for it, but refused to let it be used in a movie. Now let's talk about radio. The "liberal media" does not have anything close to Limbaugh or Dr. Laura. And Fox News, please. O'Reilly is the hightest rated news show in the county. If the media is so liberal, why is it it all owned by corporations, like republican stalwart Rupert merdiock and Mort zuckerman. Let me remind you that the New york Post and Daily news, both conservative papers, kick the Times' ass in circulation.

Joe the freakin' Plumber was a plant so that mccain would have something to talk about last night just in cast the moderator didnt bring up the ayers or acorn slander. How did he know about that conversation anyway??? Not even registered to vote..what a laugh!

#39
good point. totally agree.

I believe Joe (blow) the plumber knew hwo he was voting for when he decided to confront Sen. Obama you can tell by all the sweat on his forehead, and the republicans used this theme to exploit in a desperate attempt to sway ignorant voters who will be fooled by this desperate measure I dont know any plumbers even in NYC that make over $250.000 a year, Give us a break!

mccain is a walking talking cliche! he is disrespectful and rude. You would think by now that he has learned Senator Obama's wife name! Still trying to distract us with rhetoric and lies. I think he has alzheimers already.

Peter, Inquiring Minds,

Don't despair! The dreaded liberal media that you both love to hate will do their best to bloody up Obama in the next 19 days to give McCain a fighting chance. It's not in their financial interest to have a blowout. They'll pull out all the stops to bring Obama's poll numbers down and push McCain's poll numbers up.

woops, you're right #37. it was just a typo.

Josh (31)- I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, but earmarks are $18 BILLION, not million. (significantly larger, but still comparatively minuscule.)

Is it fair to say that McCain supporters (Inquiring minds, Peter) are asserting that the media is against McCain?
I think the bigger problem is that McCain is against McCain. He campaign sign onto the Rove tactic and its backfiring against someone like Obama who, like most Americans, sees through its shallow vale of fear and lies. This is not the McCain we once knew.

Oh excuuuuuuuuuse me, Peter! Let me rephrase. I'm sure McCain meant "implants" but honestly...what an endearing, bumbling old man. How charming. Isn't he cute?

yes -- lumping in "transplants" with cosmetic surgery...

some commentators (most notably on MSNBC, Matthews and Rachel Maddow) were saying McCain's belitting women's "health" and the way he held up his fingers to put it in quotes will KILL him (Matthew's word) in suburban areas, with independent women, etc.. Brian, could you and your guest(s) pls comment on this...

Hey Brian,

I watched the debate last night with the liveblog open... it was great to chat with you and the rest of the WNYC crew! Also, it was interesting when John O'Keefe (sp?) told us the method by which comments were chosen: he and an assistant were trying to process 100 posts a minute... and yet, the dialogue was much more civilized than it looks to be so far here. Anyway, great job last night, and thanks for the updates on the game!

My question for you and Andrea: did anyone notice McCain's Palin-esque moment towards the beginning of the debate when Schieffer asked McCain if he'd like to respond directly to Obama's statements on the economy, and McCain said "No"? Take that, you media-filtering Bob Schieffer!

Keep up the awesome work, and I can't wait for this week's Digesting Politics!

I wonder which Plumber McCain likes more: This guy Joe Wurzelbacher or G. Gordon Liddy? I know Joe got 21+ shoutouts, but the G-Man, convicted watergate fellon, gave McCain at least $1000. (from: http://www.opensecrets.org/indivs/donor_lookup.php?name=Liddy )

There is a lot going on here, and I'd like to thrown in my two cents, if I may. First of all, 95% of people under 250,000 getting a tax cut is ridiculous. Inquiring Minds above is right, a boatload of people don't make enough money to pay taxes (although I think 50% is kinda high). People don't realise, that people who are that poor are not entitled to tax cuts or credits. The people who need it most. people only pay payroll taxes on the first $102,000. So the rich get the rest of their income tax free after Fica. Don't forget, capital gains and estate taxes are not subject to payroll taxes. if they paid their fair share, that's billions of dollars to pay the debt, health care, education... rich people use social Security and schools too you know. Only $18 mil in the budget are earmarks, a drop in the bucket. Cutting them and saying you're fiscally responsible is a laugh. Come on, Obama a terrorist? Are you really serious? Reagan supported terrorists and drug dealers. Remember Iran-Contra, Noreaga, and teaming with bin-Laden in Afganistan? What about McCain's associaion with that crook Charles Keating? He got $3 billion from from the government gave $115,000 to mcmcain, his wife gave Keating $355,000 for a mall, and took turns on his private jet. Please.

Peter and Inquiring Minds,

By Election Day, Joe the Plumber will either have a book deal, a radio show, a reality tv show, or he'll be a very rich plumber because someone will give him a few hundred thousand dollars to grow his business.

Why "Joe the Plumber" matters:

Just the other day I had a small business owner -- entrepreneur -- sitting in my living room talking about the economy and his business. He was wondering whether he should EXPAND or not, that is, lease new space, buy fixtures, and hire more people.

With stocks crashing, super-low interest rates, etc. people with "risk capital" aren't earning anything on their money. There is an ENORMOUS amount of capital sitting on the sidelines....

It is essential, if we are going to "regrow" this economy that we don't have anti-business, high-tax, high-regulations going forward.

Otherwise, a whole cadre of entrepreneurs -- aged 40 and 50 something -- are just going to sit it out and protect their ASSETS.

These people create the jobs that we all need --whether that worker votes Democratic or Republican.

b.t.w. In my experience, these small business owners are not IDEOLOGUES, they are MODERATES.

On the whole Joe the Plumber thing-- this seems like a reiteration of the old right-wing canard that moving into a higher tax bracket somehow discourages people from wanting to make more money. So let me get this straight, Joe wouldn't want to start making more than $250,000 per year because income over that amount would be taxed at a higher marginal rate by an Obama administration? Seriously?

mc,
You're justified in having reservations about Obama.

The tipping point question should be the 3am phone call scenario.

The thought of McCain or Palin dealing with a 3am phone call sends a cold chill down my spine.

I have no faith in the ability of McCain or Palin to successfully handle such a crisis.

Good morning, mc,

According to the Daily Beast. He's been interviewed by everyone who could get a mic in front of him, so I'm assuming it's credible. And besides, if he's been putting in 10-hour days, seven days a week, as Mc Cain claims, who has the time to register?

seth,
I agree with you on #21 to some extent, however, I worry about unintended consequences. If we just do popular vote in the gen election then they will only spend time in CA, NY, IL and TX, not a great alternative to what we have now. I would like to see an elimination of the senators in the electoral count. That would reduce states like SD to one vote. There would still be more weight per voter to smaller states, but that would be moderated.

I would also, in the primaries prefer to scrap the caucuses and see how that goes before we despense with delegates altogether.

#19 Peter
McCain was right about holding more debates but wrong about having ordinary voters asking the questions at each debate. The avg voter doesn't have the expertise to ask the most informed questions. 2 or 3 townhall debates is fine but I'd like more debates where think tank experts pose the questions.

They are both lightweights on health care policy. While I prefer the Obama plan largely because I don't think we should tax employer provided benefits until we have a better alternative, and because a $5,000 tax credit will not begin to cover it, both guys are talking through their hats when it comes to controlling costs. If we don't get a handle on the 6-12% health care inflation along with other reforms that we all want, we will rapidly run out of money and will.

What I find depressing is that neither of them is really credible on the economy. They both have big plans for new spending and the savings that they claim, I don't think will materialize. Whle IT will help in delivering better quality in health care, a worthy goal, most research shows that it will not yield a lot of savings. And the idea that you can balance the budget by eliminating earmarks is absurd. As is the idea that you can provide a tax cut to "95%" of Americans ( a dubious figure) and spend $150 billion on infrastructure, $65 billion on health care etc., etc.

Regardless of who wins on Election Day, we'll still be left with a horrible system for choosing our President.

Dem and Repub prez nominees should be chosen by popular vote not be delegate totals and the gen election winner should be chosen by popular vote and not by electoral vote.

The public must change this unfair and undemocratic process.

Seth,

Please apologize for your support of Obama.

Moderators: Please delete this post to prove that only people on the left get to say silly things. This board must be fair and civil - towards liberals. Field day on the McCain supporters. I can't even believe I am still typing, doesn't WNYC have a hand than can reach out of my computer and stop any thought that is not supportive of Obama?

Seth, keep writing. I enjoy the double standard you represent on these boards.

Seth,

So what you are saying Seth is that McCain's idea to go around the country debating Obama several times a week for the past three months was actually a good idea? Shame Obama is scared of such depth and turned McCain down. Obama has 20 years to spend praying in a racist church, but can't find the time to debate McCain properly. For once we agree Seth, Obama did something wrong. So, you don't have to apologize Seth for that point, but please apologize for everything else you say because we tend to disagree.

Note to moderators: please delete this post to make it painfully clear just how far in the Obama camp you really are.

Mary,
Did the Joe that was interviewed in Toledo, OH say that he was not registered?

#8 Peter

I have nothing against plumbers. We couldn't get along without them. Joe the plumber represents Joe, he doesn't represent every plumber in America.

seth,
I like your idea about debates -- I actually thought last night's was the most substantive but we could do still better.

Inquiring Minds:
You should amend that to say that nearly half of Americans pay no federal *income* tax, a key point. The payroll taxes that everyone pays are the most regressive taxes and fall as a proprotionally heavier burden on low-income people.

Peter and Mary,
I agree, I think there is a lot of name calling on these boards of people who do not toe the Dem party line. Perhaps people are reacting to the name calling they hear elsewhere, however, if we want to think of ourselves as the good guys we should act more like it.

#9, pity Mr. Archetype can't be bothered to register to vote.

Inquiring Minds:

Don't you know it is racist to suggest that Obama has done anything wrong? Hanging out with terrorists like Ayers must be good because it is Obama. Say otherwise, and the old "conservative" label gets taped over you. Let me give you a lesson on Obama. He can do no wrong - this must have something to do with white guilt. He attended a church for 20 years that preached racism, but that must be cool, because it is Obama. He started his political career holding hands with a US born terrorist, but that must be cool too because it is Obama. And what a great excuse, Obama was only a child when Ayers was actively killing Americans, and Obama can't be expected to read a book or newspaper. Asking Obama to read or watch the news is racist. Asking Obama not hang out with a terrorist is also racist.

Moderators:

Would you let anyone on this list call Obama a moron like Maya did in post 10? Probably not. Calling Repulbicans names is cool and snarky, but call Obama the same name and the moderators swoop in to protect liberal listeners. Moderators = Obama lovers. Quick moderators, delete this post before your listeners find out that it is possible to think differently.

I lost it everytime Obama said "Buffet" -- it was one of those "my-dad-is-tougher-than-your-dad" comments. Buffet is not a plan!

I also liked the obfuscation about Ayers...

I look forward to 4 -- or 8 years -- of this.

@7 seth

Joe the Plumber is the archetype for the small business owner, those who are the engine of job growth in the country.

Joe, like others, are rightly worried about Obama's socialist, distributionist attitudes.

Oh, and it is a complete lie that keeps getting repeated here about Obama's 95% tax cut baloney! Nearly HALF of Americans pay NO FEDERAL TAX; You cannot give a tax cut to people WHO DON'T PAY -- Obama is going to give them a refundable tax credit...AKA a WEALTH TRANSFER.

Seth, please apologize for calling plumbers jerks. Plumbers are people too.

#5 Roger,
I'm willing to bet that most sports fans easily spend more than 21 hrs watching their favorite baseball, football, or basketball team during their respective seasons. If they can spend that much time watching their favorite sports teams they should be willing to spend about 20 hrs to get adequate info to select the leader of the free world.

Seth, really? Seven three hour debates? I spaced out before I got to the end of your post!

But seriously, there has got to be a better middle ground between the sound-bite fests and three hours of parsing policy. In the grand scheme of things, last night was pretty good. For instance, Obama was able to directly combat the Ayers sound bites with actual information and insight.

Trying to cram all domestic issues into 1 90-min debate is like trying to pour 15 lbs of salt into a 3 lb bag. It’s the ultimate dumbing down of America.

If voters want more from the candidates, they should demand more from the CPD by urging them to adopt a full-length, unabridged debate schedule.

McCain’s request for a series of townhall debates was pure baloney. I want the candidates questioned by the best and brightest minds in our nation not by Joe and Jane Sixpack. I want them questioned by panels of experts from liberal and conservative think tanks.
Instead of 1 90-min domestic policy debate, hold 7 single issue 3-hr debates with 6-7 min to answer questions:
1st debate – Taxation, Govt Spending, Debt and Deficit, and all other economic issues
2nd debate – Energy and the Environment
3rd debate – Healthcare
4th debate – Science and Technology Policy
5th debate – Education
6th debate – Immigration
7th debate – Executive Privilege, Unitary Executive, Federalism, Judicial Appointments, Congressional oversight, other general governance issues, etc.

Biggest outrage- Bob Schieffer’s nutty assertion that calling McCain "erratic" is equivalent to calling Obama a "terrorist sympathizer". What alternate universe is Schieffer living in?

McCain’s stupendous hypocrisy leaves me breathless.
1) I don’t care about Ayers but you need to explain the exact nature of your relationship with him.
2) Obama’s refusal to commit to townhall debates created a negative climate. If Obama had agreed to 10 townhall debates, then Palin wouldn’t have accused him of palling around with terrorists?
3) ACORN poses a grave threat to our democracy. McCain was the keynote speaker at an ACORN-sponsored Immigration Rally in Miami in 2006. (I think Al Qaeda is a bigger threat to our democracy than ACORN).
(Source: ACORN to McCain: Have You Lost That Loving Feeling?, Oct. 13, 2008, http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/acorn-mccain-have-you-lost/story.aspx?guid=%7B9DF1C9E0-F0BA-4509-B4EC-AF741171DEAC%7D&dist=hppr)
4) I’ll never question my opponent’s patriotism, but he’d rather lose a war than lose an election.
5) I’ll always put my country first and Sarah Palin will make a great VP.

pre-debate, I was driving so perhaps I was distracted, but did Lehrer refer to McCain & Obama as the war hero and the black guy in yesterday's segment? I checked all the comments and didn't see a mention of it.

Democracy Now is opinion?

and who is this joe the Plummer and where do I know him from?

Mccain IS the old boy network!!!!!!