wnyc.org / 93.9fm / am 820

I gotta say that right now William Ayers looks less dangerous to me than does Greenspan. The damage to lives by the fiscal debacle of the last years, months, and weeks?

Ah, but it would be wrong of me to think that way. I just wonder how many of us have the time to wait, such as Mr. Paulson suggests. It might come as a shock, but some of us didn't make millions working for Goldman-Sachs.

Brother Paulson, can you spare a dime?

Responding to the caller who mentioned McCain's offhand comment about how the bailout money 'incidentally went to fund terrorist organizations'. I heard this too, and if it is missing from all transcripts, that is strange, it was clear as day, though it came off as a weird non-sequitur.

mc,
These are strange times, indeed!
We've always had a big Asian population, mostly Japanese and Chinese, it grew even more in the 1970's, after the immigration laws passed.
Now that population is becoming more and more "americanized" with a lot of the attendant problems, esp. with regard to public health and crime. So don't let people fool you with the "model minority" thing, we're not all that...
I don't know the details of the request for the 7 billion. But when you live here, you hear every other day how we're the 7th largest economy in the world. Guess a lot of that was on credit! Whooooops! Well, we still have our central valley to grow stuff in. Sigh.
It must be strange to be in New York right now. But even here, at lunchtime, you can overhear people whispering about how nervous they are about the markets.
I have been listening to bacevich on bill moyers' journal a bit. I like him and Kevin Philips (Phillips?) on the economy, and what's happened to our country. My friend is loaning me the new Kevin Philips book tomorrow, it's supposed to be great. I guess I'll find out.
Have a good night, I gotta hit the coastal trail to work off today's lunch... if the economy tanks, I guess I will not have to worry about lunchtime calories, at least. Yikes.

eva,
I would love to visit again. When I was there before it was on someone else's dime -- made it easier. I heard about the museum in the park, it sounds great. It must get on your nerves the way SFers are stereotyped as these S & M ers. It's like equating all of NYC with the East Village. Has there been a large influx of Asia immigrants in recent years? Here in NYC that is the fastest growing population. I always found the immigrant neighborhoods in any city the most interesting.

So CA is bankrupt? We are probably not far behind. I think that it will soon hit the fan for most of the states and then watch out. I heard this morning that Iceland is bankrupt. They went to Russia for a bailout. We live in strange times.

I agree re: impeachment. After doing some reading a while back I remember thinking that Cheney would be the best place to start. I don't remember why I thought that, but I must have had a good reason. Jeez, there has been so much water under the dam since then, I can't remember what I was thinking. I regret that no one took Dennis Kucinich's articles of impeachment seriously. He really torpedoed himself during the primaries with the talk about UFO's. I am sorry for that because he was the only true progressive candidate as far as I'm concerned, and also the only presidential candidate who was in Congress for the war vote that voted NO. I have a really soft spot for him, he saved Cleveland from a rapacious utility company when he was mayor and was ridden out on a rail for his trouble. Then they appealed to him to run for Congress after they realized he saved their butts. This utility company is the same one that is responsible for the "04 East Coast blackout.

mc,
yeah, that would be a hard guess on your Orthodox Russian neighbors' vote. I guess we'll find out?
Right about the Hatch act. I'm sorry, but I want this government impeached, even if after the election.
It's not my vindictiveness, it's a matter of our collective accountability.

mc, I think Owen works for the GOP.
I love my elegant Russian neighbors, and they seem to get along well with our Asian population, shopping in the same Russian food markets. Lovely.
You should come back and visit SF. The embarcadero is entirely different post-quake, with a brand-new ferry building that is just great, lots of artisanal (and affordable) treats at Acme Bread, and an amazing farmer's market. (We don't have museums like New York, so we concentrate on food.)
But... Golden Gate Park has a new museum AND a spectac. new aquarium/planetarium/science center.
The Redwood forests are, thankfully, just about the same. Chinatown is looking great these days, and then we have lots of "new" Chinatowns. Marin County is unrecognizable, for those of us who knew it back in the day.
Then again, San Francisco proper is also unrecognizable. The immigrants remind me of old San Francisco. The ivy-league money folk who now rule this town are so corporatized, so indistinct from one another, that it's hard to know what to make of them.
BTW, did you see that we're broke? Schwarzie is trying to borrow 7 billion from the Fed. Unbelievable.

Owen, Nice tirade. Great persuasive powers you have.

eva,
Don't know if you're still on board today, but that is really interesting about your SF neighborhood. I've only been there once and it was years ago, and I didn't get around much, the Embarcodero, Golden Gate Park, Sausilito (sp?), Chinatown, and someone took me to the Redwood forest in what I think was Marin County. Long time ago.

My immediate neighborhood is also Russian, though almost all Orthodox Jewish. I think it was heavily Clinton territory, though not sure now. They might go for McCain, or they might stay home. The parts of Brooklyn that I was talking about earlier are on the other end of my neighborhood and also the area where I work.

Unbelieveable, they use the Hatch Act against that Sheriff but still haven't charged any one in the Gonzales Justic Department. Hmm.

amazin'

the hatch act may be used against Lee County Sheriff Mike Scott for campaigning against Obama in his UNIFORM. Which, IMO, was dumb.

http://www.nbc-2.com/articles/readarticle.asp?articleid=22058&z=3

Bruce M.
Bill Moyers' Journal has been a god-send.
He's had Bacevich on TWICE in about a month.
Also, he had Kevin Philips on, who was GREAT.
I really recommend going to the "This American Life" website at:
thislife.org
and listening to their new show (from last weekend) that covers credit default swaps and the credit crisis.

mc,
I'm in the city of SF, and I love my neighborhood. There are definitely neighborhood differences here, but the media never talks with the more conservative religious voters here (not that they're a big percentage, but still, the media seems to prefer to go with the stereotype.) My neighborhood has a lot of Russian immigrants, who are either Jewish or Christian-Orthodox. The Russian church here is beautiful. Tho they make you stand throughout the entire service, and women parishioners are expected to wear skirts that go down to their ankles. (They will loan you one, should you enter wearing anything shorter, which I found out the hard way.)
Despite all this, the media would prefer to show SF as the city with an S&M fair, where there are public sex acts. This is actually true, as well, I'm just arguing for a larger perspective...
Also, the more socially "conservative" people out here tend to keep their mouths shut. It's kind of like in New York, where you learn not to say certain things within certain groups. Well, same here. There's a lot of self-censorship. It definitely stifles discussion.
This is not Obama territory. But neither is it McCain's. Many immigrants have a deep skepticism about government, and they are right.
I know how you feel about being misunderstood. My old friends in SF now think I am some kind of conservative Nazi because of my support for veterans, and my non-hard-line on abortion and gay marriage.

The issue of "unqualified" mortgagees is an issue, but it's not their actual paper that was sold off.

Suddenly debt was to be treated as a commodity. Wall Street had one of those epiphanies that they tend to have on their expense account lunches: We can package these things and make money.

The Commodification of Debt is an element of the picture that was presented on Bill Moyers some weeks back. Businesses that suck every last penny from the pockets of poor people. Pay day loans. Sub-prime mortgages. Car dealers who calculate loan payments based on what money you have NOT on the actual underlying value of the car, so that at the end of the day, you are spending every penny you have on the car.

Blaming poor people for this? Who wrote the terms of the mortgage?

Re: Clinton Supporters Sitting on the Fence

If you don't vote for Mr. Obama you gals will get exactly what you deserve. Did I hear someone say it was time to reconsider women's sufferage until you gals can make up your mind?

Quite frankly, if only to spite you undecideds, McCain should get elected. Then you can go to Cindy's hairdresser to get your hair teased and then to the painted pitbull's church and have your body put under male control cause that will be your level of participation in that administration. Aren't you gals happiest with a man in charge anyway? Let's face it, Mrs. Clinton stood by her man even though he never once pulled up his trousers. She figured she was better off with him than without him!

In other words, any woman who claims to have a brain and does not vote for Barack Obama should have her head examined.

eva,
If anyone has a legitimate beef with the Repubs it's the ex-military guys.

Are you actually in SF or outside? Are there regional differences in SF or is it too small? NYC, as you know is big enough that there are regional differences even within the city limits. The parts of Brooklyn I spend the most time in were indeed, rabid. And in no mood to talk about why Obama was not the obvious choice to anyone with any brains. It has made me far more sensitive to the way I talk to other people about their views.

mc,
I couldn't agree more.
first, on the "zoo" aspect. second, ironically, on how effective the article is in relating what these undecided voters are dealing with daily. third, on going through the looking glass in this election.
I just read a string of posts somewhere else last week on how Palin is "jowly". I felt like I was on another planet. Her behavior is another matter. But her looks? she's "jowly"? She has many faults, but her face is not one of them.
The other weird thing, I think, is that in the midst of this financial crisis, people are seriously changing their views of what is "radical" what is "conservative" et cetera.
I don't deal with a lot of rabid Obama supporters, owing to my neighborhood, which, while in SF, is more socially moderate due to our mixed immigrant group. And because for a lot of the rest of this town, Obama is not radical enough. But I do think that the Thomas Frank "what's-the-matter-with-Kansas" bit was insulting (and short-sighted) when it came out, and counterproductive. Packer crits it, rightly. There's a real demonization out here of people who aren't "coastal", or who are ex-military. It's counterproductive, to say the least, especially since the ex-military guys have been disproportionately funding Obama and criticizing Bush policies.

Poeple like Snodgrass are so tired all the time, and so worried that they hesitate to take a chance on someone they don't recognize. The sublimated racist feelings then mix with that and the minds go to those nasty places. I saw the same phenomenon here with the extreme reactions to both Hillary and Palin, out of proportion to who they really were and what they stood for.

I feel like we have gone through some kind of looking glass. We have nominated a Democratic centrist who looks to a lot of people like a lefty. Many people are buying the lefty thing and so are afraid of him. I wonder if what we have to do to actually make real change is nominate a lefty who looks like a centrist. If someone is wrapped up in conservative paper but actually has a radical heart, maybe something cuold get done. Maybe not. Certainly neither Hillary nor Obama could pull that off. I do think that people are tired of being castigated by rabid Obama supporters for 1) feeling he is too radical - which I think is not true or 2) feeling he is not radical enough - which I think is closer. I also think people are tired of being told that they are racist or stupid or uneducated and that is why they vote against their own interests, and, by the way, we are here to tell them what their interests are, since they are too dumb to know.

eva,
I just read the Packer article. It looks like he is trying to bring the reality of the Ohio working class voter to the New Yorker reader. The problem is that his approach is one of someone describing a zoo specimen or something (well, maybe not that bad, but you know what I mean).

In spite of that, his imagery brings it back to me. I have been to many of those places. The nuance and variety of viewpoints is real. At the same time, the campaign worker's fear of physical harm if she wears an Obama tee shirt is real too. I experienced some of the same fear, though not as immediate, at wearing a Hillary button in some parts of Brooklyn.

seth,
I'm agreed, and will write to the organization you described.
The debate was way too short.
Thanks for the info on who to write to.

Voting in spite of racist feelings, from George Packer's article:

'Dave Herbert was a stocky, talkative building contractor in an Ohio State athletic jersey.... At one point, he had doubted that Obama stood a chance in Glouster. “From Bob and Pete’s generation there are a lot of racists—not out-and-out, but I thought there was so much racism here that Obama’d never win.” Then he heard a man who freely used the “ ‘n’ word” declare his support for Obama: “That blew my theory out of the water.”
A maintenance man at the nearby high school, who declined to give his name, said that he had been undecided until McCain selected Palin to be his running mate, which swung his support to Obama.
“So you’re a sexist more than a racist,” Herbert joked.
“I just think the guy Obama picked would do better if he got assassinated than McCain’s if he died of frickin’ old age in office,” the maintenance man said.'

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/10/13/081013fa_fact_packer?currentPage=all

We went through a second round of presidential debates, but Latin America (LA)/Latino topics were never discussed. Latin Americans and US Latinos certainly feel disgusted that their lives and problems don't factor in the foreign and domestic political debate.

Despite LA's proximity and influence, it's certain that LA and its people is NOT an issue US cares about in terms of foreign policy or domestically. Never mind that 45+ millions of Latinos(Americans)are living in the US and will probably decide the upcoming election, or that 600 million Latin Americans populate most of the Western hemisphere territories.

No wonder the region is decisively drifting away and creating global alliances to counter the US influence in the Western hemisphere and the world.

For me the debate is a good example why there is very little difference between Obama and McCain. The economy is such a shambles, yet our only two viable choices for President have these completely scripted and sound-bited debates where they both same little to nothing.

It's depressing that both candidates are completely beholden to big business and you can tell by watching them 'debate' that these aren't the words or thoughts of a specific individual, but an amalgam of strategists and pr people's talking points designed to manipulate poll numbers.

I was really hoping to see a debate where two people spoke their mind, but the days of unscripted and honest politics are long, long gone. That's scary.

To the undecideds: Take this weekend, set aside a couple hours, go to the library and internet, and do some research. Then come to a decision.

If you're not willing to do that, then you're not worth your salt, and don't deserve a vote.

The reality is that everyone will pander to you and bring you their platforms as if it was "room service". And that's something that you undecideds like. But that kind of piecemeal drip drop of information does not lead to any cohesive idea about the situation.

If you really care about this country you'll get out there and educate yourself about the the race. Something tells me that that's not what you will do. You'll be complaining until Nov. 4th.

eva,
I'll check out the article. I don't like the way the sample you provided reads either. He probably would be shocked that any of his readers are offended. Somehow, it's OK to talk about her that way.

In today's Washington Post there is an op ed piece by both former Sec of State Kissinger and Schultz. They talk about a US-Russia relationship that is vital to the future of the planet. Their comments demonstrate the lack of understanding Sen MacCain has on one of the key issues facing the next president. Russia, with a good percentage of the world's nuclear weapons cannot be ignored. We have to find ways to work together. It is always easier to talk to your friends, but that will not solve the world's problems. As Louis XIV believed, "keep your friends close and your enemies closer."

Re: The "new" mortgages, they were "new" in the sense that the interest rates were to re-set at much higher rates down the road. Coupled with the fact that many of the borrowers would probably have trouble paying them and you had a recipe for disaster. Then the banks, determined to profit from taking the risks overstated their worth and then sold them to investers who didn't have enough capital to back up their bets. There is plenty of blame to go around, it does not just belong with Fannie and Freddie, although they certainly share it.

from packer:
"She was forty-two, single, overweight, and suffering from stomach pains.
Snodgrass sat down at my table and refused the offer of a soft drink. She was wearing a drab ensemble of gray cotton sweatpants and a loose-fitting pale-yellow knit top, and her brown hair fell in bangs just above her eyes. I asked for her thoughts about the Presidential candidates, and she said, “Someone who makes two hundred or three hundred thousand a year, who eats a regular meal, who doesn’t have to struggle, who doesn’t worry if the lights are going to be turned out—if he doesn’t walk in your shoes, he can’t understand.”

mc, I just think the physical description is unkind. On the other hand, he gives a voice to each of the subjects, and that says a great deal more about them, and you come away admiring their fortitude and skepticism.
Here's the link:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/10/13/081013fa_fact_packer?currentPage=all

eva,
Again, I'll have to read it to see how it strikes me. It just sounds like his physical descriptions are a way of objectifying his interviewees. I grew up in the midwest, and there is a perception that people on the coasts look down on them and denigrate their concerns which are different from the concerns of people on the coasts. This kind of objectifying feeds that perception and, I think, is unhelpful.

Barry,
here's adam davidson to clear things up:
Adam Davidson: As we now know, they (the bundlers) were using the wrong data. They looked at the recent history of mortgages and saw that foreclosure rate is generally below 2
percent. So they figured, absolute worst-case scenario, the foreclosure rate may go
to 8 or 10 or 12 percent. But the problem with is there were all these new kinds of
mortgages, given out to people who never would have gotten them before. So the
historical data was irrelevant. Some mortgage pools, today, are expected to go
beyond 50 percent foreclosure rates.

If you're struggling to understand this mess (who isn't), I truly recommend a great primer - which is available online, it's on thislife.org, a radio program, and the title of the show is "The Giant Pool of Money." It covers the housing crisis. They have a followup program about the subsequent financial crisis which aired, I think, last week, but you should hear the "pool of money" episode first.

mc,
I'm re-reading the article. It's nastier than I thought. Oh well.
Barry:
Nobody takes Jim Cramer seriously. They can't. His advice is terrible. Wasn't he pushing Lehman right before it collapsed? Or Bear? Can't remember.
He's featured in the documentary about our debt, "I.O.U.S.A." and he is just screaming hysterically on his TV show. It really doesn't inspire confidence. He doesn't understand what's been going on, or if he does, he's deeply cynical.

mc,
I was shocked by the physical descriptions - really callous. On the other hand, I came away with real respect for the subjects, based on Packer's descriptions of their situations and their resolve.
So Packer ain't all bad...
But reading the article, I couldn't help but wonder what the subjects would think of his depiction of their physical selves - I also didn't necessarily think it was relevant. At one point, he refers to one woman as "single and overweight" and I just thought it was irrelevant. If you were an M.D. treating the person for heart disease or diabetes, then yeah. But...?

barry @102,

You may not have blamed it on the poor but there is a right wing effort to do so.

Foolish lending, accumulating debt to buy stuff you don't really need, living beyond your means, constantly seeking instant and/or material gratification, creating doomed investment instruments to profit from all of this... and those who are prudent and sensible have to bail you out when it all falls apart?

Yes, it really, really sucks.

The rating was all out of whack because the quality of the mortgage buyer was degraded and the default rate is many times what it has been historically
Out i gotta get back to work retouching

The Nicole Miller exec is an excellent guest.

Interesting perspective.

eva,
To be fair, I have not read the Packer article. My sister has a subscription. I'll have to see what she thinks, plus I'll have to check it out myself. But your comments about it remind me of the virus we all seem to have of characterizing each other as "other." If we are not talking about racists in the midwest or south (like they don't exist right here) we are talking about "smarter than thou" coastal dwellers talking about "rednecks in the flyover zone." If we really want change it will have to come about by persuading each other to make better choices. Dismissing each other is not going to get it done.

barry,
But speaking of loaning to unqualified buyers: what about the banks then selling dubious paper that had been rated AAA by raters on the payroll of the banks and then the banks that bought up the paper investing without proper capital to back it up? Unqualified borrowers, maybe? Insufficient collateral? Now we all suffer.

AWM from UWS "To blame this mess, directly or indirectly, on the poor is right wing opportunism and wildly of the mark."

No one blamed it on the poor. It was the foolish loaning of money to unqualified buyers.
Basically he only people who get should be loaned money are those who don't need it. Sucks right.
Well it sure sucks now.

Got it, they were working few levels above the final consumer to help ensure the funds were available to banks at affordable rates to insure affordable mortgages to unqualified home owners.
Thanks for the info, I can just see through the egg on my face now.

mc,
I just read your posts, thanks. To be fair, maybe Anne thought that because yesterday I did bring up racist statements made at a Palin rally that were reported in the Washington Post.
It is a worthwhile article, but I was kind of shocked by how casually nasty Packer's descriptions of midwesterners were. When one is "overweight" and the other "gangly" you get the impression that you just can't please Packer no matter your body type.

Benjy #94,
This is precisely why the "pork" argument is so dumb. One person's pork is another's important project. It is all about perception. A more useful discussion might be about what kinds of projects the federal government should be funding and would we be better served by having more money go straight to states and municipalities so they can decide how to use it. Also, the practice of attaching spending provisions to "must pass" bills is distasteful at best. While I applaud mental health parity, it did not belong on the bailout bill.

to ericf (#95) -- great post. Clear, relevant analogy.

#2, Anne,
I didn't bring up Packer's racism, only the racism that Packer explicitly refers to IN THE ARTICLE.
I did bring up Packer's elitism.
No biggie, but maybe read the article? Or read my actual post?

Is anyone else shocked that some cable pundits are already saying that if McCain loses, Palin becomes a frontrunner for the 2012 Repub nomination?

Two good commentaries on Palin from Vanity Fair

http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2008/11/graydon200811

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/politics/2008/10/when-did-america-start-settling-for-second-best.html

some further thoughts on regulatory policy for libertarians and conservatives:

economic conservatives sometimes equate the notions of government regulation and government micro-management.

i suspect that some conservatives and moderates are afraid that the current financial turmoil will lead to the kind of heavy handed regulation that diminishes personal freedom and stifles innovation.

when discussing regulation of the finance system senator obama has used the phrase "rules of the road". this is an excellent metaphor. computer networks also work well because they have clear, consistent rules.

the rules of the road do NOT micro-manage our driving. the rules of the road do NOT dictate our destinations, routes, or driving styles. they do NOT prevent us from stopping along the way to admire the view. the rules of the road help us get WHERE WE CHOOSE TO GO quickly and safely.

similarly, computer networks permit users to send packets anywhere, receive packets from anywhere, but work only because they are governed by rules and because they provide shared physical resources (like network wiring) and shared services (like name resolution services).

appropriate regulation and oversight can enhance freedom, rather than diminishing it.

I'd like to add some background on Senator McCain's "overhead projector" comment. This money was used to upgrade to the Adler planetarium in Chicago to put in science visualization technology like that in the Hayden planetarium in NYC. By referring to a system so complex and educationally important as this as an "overhead projector" McCain is either flaunting his ignorance or mocking the importance of a vital science teaching tool. Science visualization is a key technology for everything from oil and gas exploration to teaching astrophysics, and something the US needs to stay competitive in the use of.

Senator McCain’s proposal to buy up bad mortgages makes no sense as a campaign promise. By the time he would be able to implement such a proposal it would probably not have the desired effect on the markets any more. The timing seems wrong.

barry @81,

The only people who would cite that Cramer statement are people who are unaware of or don't understand the connection between subprime borrowers, subprime lenders, investment banks and commercial banks.

Of course it's bad that people who couldn't afford them owned homes. What is worse is the securitization of their debt.

To blame this mess, directly or indirectly, on the poor is right wing opportunism and wildly of the mark.

barry
that was bush's "ownership society"

barry,
I'm fairly sure that #2 is Mexico. The last I checked Saudi Arabia comes in either 3rd or 4th, either in front of or behind Venezuela.

Your comment about health care not being a right: You might be interested in Maggie Mahar's blog healthbeatblog.org There is a post there right now discussing the difference between a right and an entitlement. She makes the point that no one has the "right" to services provided by someone free of charge - instead, it is our moral obligation to make sure someone's access to those services does not depend on his/her ability to be an economic winner.

Re: Fannie and Freddie: it is true that the trouble started when loans were made to people who were not so likely to pay them back. However, we are in teh fix we are in now because the loans were converted into securities which were sold under dubious claims about their worth, and bought by investers who did not have enough capital to back up the purchases if they ended up bad.

To Barry from Manhattan:
Fannie and Freddie never lent money to any buyers. They did not write one single mortgage. They were private, shareholder owned companies backed by the federal government as guarantor. Although they did not make sup-prime loans, they purchased them (anywhere from 15-25% of the subprime market in 2006-- see http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2008/10/crisis_roundtable_more_fannie.cfm).

Here is the description of Fannie Mae (Freddie is similar) from its official site (fanniemae.com):
"Rather than making home loans directly with consumers, we work with mortgage bankers, brokers, and other primary mortgage market partners to help ensure they have funds to lend to home buyers at affordable rates. We fund our mortgage investments primarily by issuing debt securities in the domestic and international capital markets."

well i think low interest rates were more inflammatory than Kramers analysis. And F & F loaned to unqualified buyers (read Poor People)
Meanwhile the Republicans were saying everyone should own a home...today.

The moderator at the final debate should be empowered to cut off either candidate in mid-first sentence if they utterly fail to answer the question asked, as both did repeatedly last night.

barry
jim kramer is unwatchable.
ranting and raving BUY BUY BUY. his ilk sold gas to the arsonists

The foreign oil comment I heard from Mark Shields on PBS
it was pretty funny and an excellent point.
I think # 2 was Saudi Arabia, who is, as we all know, really our arch enemy. Really

After watching the first two presidential debates, Barack Obama is undeniably the best choice. I have nothing against old people since I too am in my Golden years, but 72 (and questionable health) is simply too old for the job, plain and simple. Even their idol Ronnie Reagan was out of commission most of his second term. We all now know that Nancy, her hairdresser and her astrologer were running the country. Can't you just see Trophy Wife Barbie and Annie Oakley duking it out as the old man declines. There are clearly only three reasons that anyone sane would vote for McCain: loyal Republicans who drink the Kool-Aid; senility and no longer able to make a rational decision; or racism--which is the message that both McCain and his lipstick smeared piglet (oops, pitbull bitch) are continually playing. Mr. Obama is so clearly the most qualified choice. Its also a shame that the Catholic church's teachings are also having so much influence on the American election. It seems to me that just as those other denominations who spoke out politically from their pulpits are being investigated by the IRS, they should also be looking into the Catholic Church. It would seem after their own scandal of sexually abusing children for generations the Catholics would redo their play book. Next best choice is to simply bankrupt them. Oh there is one other reason why anyone would vote for McCain: stupidty. And like they say on FOX, this is my opinion!

a quotation the undecided libertarian listener may appreciate:

...regulations may, no doubt, be considered as in some respect a violation of natural liberty. But those exertions of the natural liberty of a few individuals, which might endanger the security of the whole society, are, and ought to be, restrained by the laws of all governments ; of the most free, as well as of the most despotical. The obligation of building party walls, in order to prevent the communication of fire, is a violation of natural liberty, exactly of the same kind with the regulations of the banking trade...

-- Adam Smith

( in "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations" 1776 )

I am so more sure I will vote for Obama than I have ever been. My comment is about the overhead projector for the science museum in Chicago. It's not like this is a waste of money if you think about it ... good museums generate tourist money and the money gets earned back to the museum and the city. For example, when my son was young he wanted to see the Aquarium of the Americas in New Orleans. If they had not built it then my money would not have gone to airlines, food venues, hotel etc etc ... Not just money generated ... good will is generated AND science programs for young people just can't be underestimated. Yeah McCain, let's take an ax and chop you off from buying houses and foreign made cars.

Signed,
voter for "that one"

Any thoughts on this? I saw Jim Kramer on Colbert last for the last night, he said housing crash was due to Fannie and Freddy loaning to unqualified buyers for 20 or so years

"Colbert: So we can safely not blame this on the Bush Administration?

Cramer: No. You can't. Actually, you can't blame it on the Bush Administration.

Colbert: You cannot?

Cramer: No, you cannot. I'd love to but it is historically incorrect."

@74,

Just curious... what are they supposed to say if asked about the status of the dollar? How would their answer at this point where everything is constantly in flux and unpredictable help?

I suspect that McCain's handlers are party apparatchiks whose eyes are focused more on maintaining the Party's branding than on getting McCain elected.

And while it was not on NPR, there was a moment on Charlie Rose last night when someone reminded everyone that of that foreign oil that we worry so much about, well, it seems that are number one and number two suppliers are Canada and Mexico.

Ben #53,
It's not a fine. It's a tax. If the employer does not furnish "meaningful" coverage (wording is from Obama's website), it must pay a tax to help finance the new public plan. He has not defined the amount. The amount levied on the Mass. employers has fallen far short of the amount of money needed.

When asked the profoundly stupid question about potential Treasury Secs, McCain mentioned Warren Buffet and Meg Whitman. Buffet would NEVER do it, Whitman was CEO of ebay which just laid off 10% of its workforce. Out of touch.

After referring earlier to Reagan as "My hero", Mcain referred to Teddy Roosevelt as "My hero" and went on to misquote him. Roosevelt didn't say "Talk softly and carry a big stick" he said "Walk softly..." and Obama hit him back badly with the "Bomb Iran" thing anyway.

And Brian, your perception of Obama as "aloof" is YOUR perception, through an unfavorable lens. He didn't have to "practice" in order to change his demeanor to "confident." I don't even know what that means and I don't think you do either.

Correction: eva did use the word "racism" but only as relates to the point Packer was trying to make.

Brian

You should watch that vapid interview with Buffet recently on Charlie Rose...he stumbles around for an hour on how much he loves America...and then lets it slip out that he has invested big in an electric car company...............IN CHINA.

You really gotta wonder about where peoples' loyalties lie!

Crushes are dangerous, btw.

@66
Inquiring I totally agree with you and yet none of this candidates will address or nobody will ask them about the status of the dollar.

Why doesn't anybody care about the value of the dollar? the federal reserve cut interest rates again today which means that the dollar will problably loose some more value.

Fanny and Freddie lent money to unqualified buyers for years and it drove up the market.
Now that crashin market is eroding confidence in the market and reducing credit.

McCains proposal make sense

Home prices need to drop, the surplus homes used up and at the same time, revalued mortgages are bought up by the Fed and eventually resold to new home owners down the road

barry,
You are right on both counts. The $700 billion that goes to "countries who don't like us very much" is what we spend on foreign oil. Not the same $700 billion in the bailout. Not much under the control of the government there. And you are right, most of the foreign oil comes from Mexico and Canada.

Brian someone beat you too the "That One" T-shirt idea check it out:
http://t-shirts.cafepress.com/item/im-voting-for-that-one-womens-tshirt/315049619

Brian, one thing voters are not aware of that needs to be told, working in the health care industry for 15 years and dealing with insurance companies, what Mccain proposed that we can buy health insurance from other states is catastrophic, if someone buys health insurance in another state and the state you live in is not participating with your insurance that insurance may only cover your 50, 70 or 80% leaving a very heavy burden of out of network deductibles or co-insurances, co-pays and may not cover all procedures that are covered in the state the insurance is being offered.

Everyone who hated anything about the debate format should flood the CPD with their criticism
Commission on Presidential Debates
1200 New Hampshire Avenue, NW
Box 445
Washington, DC 20036

At the very least, they need to hold many, many more debates. If we can have 20 Dem Party Prez debates we should be able to hold 8 to 9 Gen Election Prez Debates. For the love of God, get rid of these airhead Celebrity Journalists and use liberal and conservative think tank experts instead.

Brian etal...stop demeaning American workers by usinf catch-alls like Joe Six-Pack....and drop the coverage of drinking games...thats asinine...

McCain was vague with a lot of his answers. He kept saying that he's solved problems and reached across the aisle for years so we should assume he can solve most problems. He said solving social security is easy, you just have to get people together to talk. Catching Bin Laden is also easy. A lot of these old problems are easy for McCain but has not offered to solve them until this moment when he is running for office.

@62 hjs

Most things don't scare me; but I will tell you what really does: The day the world blinks and decides that the dollar will no longer be the world's reserve currency. The implicit subsidy we get for the dollar's current status is, well, incalculable.

:(

Health care aint no "right"
unfortunately

#27,

How does Senator McCain’s proposal make any sense? McCain wants to shore up housing prices housing prices and prevent any further decline. Basically, McCain’s plan is to foster the same thing that got us into this mess. People stopped looking at a house, their home, as a place to live and turned them into ATMs and slot machines. Lenders knew housing prices were rising at unsustainable levels and in several locations were overvalued. People were literally gambling with the roof over their head, and they lost! The US tax payers should not be responsible for people gambling with their homes and loosing. Did people really thing housing prices would continue to rise by 5, 10, 20, 30 percent per year indefinitely. Revaluing mortgages would be condoning people living beyond their means and buying more home than they could afford. These were otherwise responsible people, but c’mon. If I buy a $50,000 car and a month later it is only worth $30,000 due to depreciation, do I get to have my car loan revalued? No, then why should this happen on a house? Everything not going to always be worth more than you paid for it. Let housing prices correct, then maybe we’ll have more responsible lending, buying and, building, and pricing in the future.

Anne in Texas #2 re: eva #1,
eva did not use or misuse the word racism. Read the post again. She does make a great point about the way an "elitist" opinion writier characterizes poor white voters in Ohio. If people are interested in persuading other people to come to their side, making snide comments aobut their appearance and intelligence is not going to get it done.

[55] Inquiring Minds
well, there will be decline in the USA if we don't start electing leaders who want to invest in education and infrastructure and get ready for the boomer retirement.

I haven’t heard any comments on Senator McCain’s obvious nervousness at the beginning of both debates. My voice does that when I do a presentation that I didn’t prepare enough for. Does he sound nervous to anyone else?

The Ayers controversy is relevant to the base, but few outside of it. That picture of Ayers standing on the American flag was relevant and recent.
Obama tossed Ayers under the bus just like the Rev as soon as they were political liability.
It has more to do with Obamas very focused march up the political ladder, he was more than happy to sit with the American Hating left while it served his needs.

Brian, I hate the rhetoric republicans keep using about big government, and how we should not use government to help insure americans. Yet its ok for the government to use all of our tax dollars to bail out the whole damn world, but we cant use our own tax dollars to help americans have adaqute health insurance. Give us all a break!

@53 Ben

on unattractive thing about these socialized medicine plans is that they have to "force" or "coerce" you to join...

since they can't break your arm, they take your money in the form of a penalty

this was in the Massachussets plan -- i don't know the penalty amount

if you love liberty, this is an ugly aspect of these ideas...

If Mccain had personality which he doesn't this race would be neck and neck. But for whatever reason the republican party chose the worse candidate to go against barack "the one" obama.

I will be pointing fingers two years from now, when things haven't really changed. at all of you obama voters.

McCain is desperate!

@50 hjs

spot on, dude!

Did you see the next segment is on globalization? Trouble is, those other countries are going to repeat the same cycle -- so we have several more GENERATIONS of declining wealth for Americans.

he meant "The One" from the Matrix you dolts!

What is the deal with the fines for not having health care? This is something that I had not heard about previously and I wish Obama had addressed it because it seems like something some voters may be turned off by.

@46 Barry

brilliant. fully agree.

To be undecided, moderate, or inquisitive today makes you a pariah on either side!

"That One," not only condescending but offensive!

[36] Inquiring Minds
maybe from 3rd world guest workers

I guess i am the only one who wasn't convinced about the two. Obama and Mccain really didn't asnwer any the questions with actual solutions.

Why cant we have an actual town hall debate not this theater show, that was put on yesterday.

And people need to stop voting on people's "personality" this isn't a prom king contest, or a popularity contest. I dont care if the person is a jerk, if he is good for the job then he is good for the job, and neither are good for the job.

Of course he was attacking he is behind!

#22 Larry
I think the cable pundits are calling the debate a tie in the hopes of raising McCain's poll numbers or slowing down their decline. The networks have a strong financial incentive in keeping the race competitive. Higher tv ratings means more advertising dollars

#25 Rob
Thanks for your compliment regarding McCain's tease about a secret plan to capture Bin Laden. You may be right about candidates not necessarily knowing the details of their plans.
However, I've been watching these debates since 1976 and I'm fed up with the poor quality of the questions that Celebrity Journalists and ordinary voters tend to ask.

I think people who have already decided shouldn't be allowed to vote, they are close minded.

Candidates can find all sorts of ways to introduce their messages into debates.

There can be little doubt that the reason McCain left Bill Ayers out of the discussion last night is that McCain's own internal polling shows that Ayers is gaining zero traction with voters.

@37 This is insulting and ridiculous!

Here's an idea: both candidates are unattractive.

Many are holding their noses with disgust -- just long enough to pull the lever next month.

They are waiting to collect more "information".

How can anyone be undecided at this point? I wonder where most undecideds fall. What percentage like Obama's policies but don't trust him and vice versa, and the same for McCain. This can tell us what the real issues are.

And I can't really see how anyone like McCain since he has changed position on many issues when he decided to run for ofice (his own immigration bill, torture, taxes.) Do we really want a man that can't stick to his principles?

did she just call cindy a ho?

Will someone please ask Bloomberg to run for president, with Sarah as Secretary of State (she has experience with Russia)? McCain is a borrow-and-spend-to-oblivion "maverick" and Obama is just another tax-and-borrow-and-spend-to-oblivion liberal.

planetariums are the devil's tool.

What's this, "My friends," bit on McCain's part?
I thought that was really annoying.

As a pundit pointed out last nite, most of our 700 billion in oil money goes to Canada and Mexico. Our top suppliers.

#8,
I wondered the same thing #8, about how there could be so many undecideds, but then I realized something… These are people that shouldn’t be voting to begin with. These undecideds either 1. Haven’t been paying attention to the primaries nor the presidential race up ‘til now. 2. Are only concerned with one or two issues and are unable to see past those. 3. Really should be voting for a third party candidate, but for some reason won’t. 4. Need to be spoon-fed everything they know and are either too lazy or too incompetent to learn something about a candidate and make a decision. 5. Want to feel important, so they hold out until the last minute so everyone caters to them. Or 6. As I said to begin with, really shouldn’t be voting; if one cannot make up one’s mind after nearly 18 months of campaigning, then pulling a leaver with crossed fingers in a boot is a disservice to all Americans.

Brian

Even more, the economy needs rebuilt in more "sustainable" ways.

The work of Elizabeth Warren of Harvard Law School is salient in this regard. (she has an excellent lecture on YouTube)

The argument is that the US economy has received several -- unsustainable -- "injections" since WW2.

First, women, who had been stay-at-hom-moms, entered the workforce; later, both mom and dad worked longer hours; finally, the household relied on consumer debt. Each "injection" sustained consumption. The question is: WHERE DOES THE NEXT FIX COME FROM?

I don't see one.

You make a false equivalence between McCain's participation in the Keating Five and Obama's acquaintance with Bill Ayers.

The first is relevant. The second isn't.

I noticed the "money going to terrorist" comment.
I think I figured it out.
He was referring to the 700 billion we spend on oil imports and some of it "going to terrorists" he referred to it later as well.

Re debate:
-- terrible format. This was not a debate but an exchange of stump speech segments.
-- intrusive and unpleasant moderator
-- McCain offered nonsense, non-sequiturs, and outright lies, taking credit for things he never did and consistently misrepresenting Obama's positions
-- Obama said nothing new but once again showed himself to be calm, focused, and presidential.
I think there will be either no net effect or an intensification of the swing to Obama.

From Fact Check.org [http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_debate_no_2.html]
McCain made what he claimed was a new proposal to rescue over-mortgaged homeowners:

McCain: As president of the United States. ... I would order the secretary of the treasury to immediately buy up the bad home loan mortgages..."

McCain added: "It's my proposal, it's not Sen. Obama's proposal, it's not President Bush's proposal. But I know how to get America working again..."

But in fact, the recently passed $700 billion rescue package already grants the treasury secretary authority to undertake just such a program. It requires the secretary to buy up troubled mortgages while taking into consideration “the need to help families keep their homes and to stabilize communities.” It also says “the Secretary shall consent, where appropriate (to) loss mitigation measures, including term extensions, rate reductions (or) principal write downs."

Obama himself had urged this as the package was being considered. He said on Sept. 23 that "we should consider giving the government the authority to purchase mortgages directly instead of simply purchasing mortgage-backed securities."

I'll bet $50 that when McCain said "that one" he was trying to Joke about "the one" from the Matrix except he'd never seen the movie.
Only one of several flat jokes by McCain

I listened with great interest to the debate last night. I was astonished to hear McCain say out of left field about the $700 billion bail-out bill that some of it was going to terrorists. This occurred early in the debate and, as I recall, had nothing to do with the question, or even his answer. No one seems to have commented on this. Did I imagine it? P.S. I was very annoyed with Tom Brokaw... the debate was going pretty well with real substance and he kept trying to force things into a rigid format. Neither candidate was that much over the time limit and they had things to say, whether you agreed with them or not.

In the portion of the debate I saw I thought John McCain looked nervous and out of touch. He continually stumbled on his words. If he can not handle the pressured situation of a debate then four years in the White House...just imagine.

McCains has a real strong finish with his closing remarks.
I thought the whole Pakistan/Bin Ladin thing was a straw man by both guys

Fanny and Freddie lent money to unqualified buyers for years and it drove up the market.
McCains proposal make sense
Home prices need to drop, the surplus homes used up and at the same time, revalued mortgages are bought up by the Fed and eventually resold to new home owners down the road

The only thing new I heard from McCain (who looked remarkably unhealthy, walking in a slow and jerky fashion next to a very lithe Obama) was that he'd buy up all the bad loans on Main Street. He lost his far right conservative base right there, which had me smiling.

As you might have guessed, I'm voting for "That One". :)

I think it is apparent that Senator McCain came off as a confused out of touch old man who is reverting back to child like behavior; hence he does not appear to be Presidential. His anger and discomfort with Senator Obama was so obvious in his facial expressions and his body language. He has to feel threatened by Senator Obama's grace, thoughtfulness, and grasp of the issues. Obama is Presidential, and will absolutely be the best person for the job in the new millenium. To all of you undecided voters "it's a no-brainer."

Seth from LI,

You stole my thunder! I was watching the debate and I could not believe it when McCain said that he knew how to catch Bin Ladin. You would think that with a president from the same party in power and a man who put his country first would have caught the man who is responsible for the murder of thousands of his fellow citizens if he knew how to do it. I was also surprised that Obama did not pounce on this statement.

I also like your idea about more indepth questions asked by subject matter experts but will it hold the attention of the viewers? In addition although the president is the executive, he or she is probably not going to be involved with the details of policy, therefore to implement your plan it would probably require that the candidates subject matter experts also be on a panel.

The most chilling moment of last night's debate was when McCain referred to Obama as "that one." He was referring to a vote that Obama did or didn't sign. But McCain's attempt at portraying Obama as "the other," "the alien" is evidence of his campaign's continuing attempt to divert our attention fron the reality of the current crises, to shroud Obama in mystery and fear. It sickens me that this is where we have come, this blatant and clumsy fear mongering.

It was interesting to watch the candidates mingle with the crowd after the debate. Many networks kept the cameras running. McCain seemed uncomfortable after shaking hands, Cindy did not look any better. They stayed for no more than 3 minutes.

Meanwhile the Obamas continued to shake hands, take pictures and talk with the people at the "town hall".

Obama just seems like a more calm & cool character, where McCain seems to be visibly losing confidence.

Is the "mainstream media" insane, bias, or just looking to keep a huffing and puffing McCain alive in the public consciousness for the ratings benefit?

His performance last night seemed gasping and unsure---repitious and in many cases incredible.

Even objective, undedicded voters had to have seen Obama as stronger, smarter and more balanced and logical in his approach to the crises (plural?) facing our country.

Many pundits and media giants seemed to call the debate a draw this morning.

Come on, McCain was so obviously on the ropes.

Edward Helmrich,

This is not a nation of Catholics. You should make your own decisions as regard to your personal life and religion. The government should not be involved.

We in the United States deserve to have the freedom to make our own choices in our personal lives, not have is dictated by arcane doctrine.

Priest were able to marry up until the 1100s.

Religious rules and doctrines were/are created by human beings for the purpose of maintaining power and control over others.

There is faith and then there is doctrine.

"That One?" How terribly unstatesmanlike of McCain, and a foreshadowing of what we could expect in negotiations with world leaders, if he were even willing to speak with them. Wow!

So if McCain wins and appoints the CEO of Ebay as treasury secretary and then buys up all the bad debt, are we going to organize a giant online auction of bad American debt?

Nice to know others support That One as well.
http://www.thatone08.com/

Given all the borderline hate-speech that now accompanies McCain-Palin rallies, it is difficult NOT to hear that same tone in McCain's "That one." It felt like a slap. McCain has made the final drop into angry old man.

But kudos to the Obama campaign for quickly turning that snark into a pro-Obama site:
http://www.thatone08.com/

at least cindy mc cain was decent enough to shake obama's hand after the townhall, maybe she should run, mc cain is just nasty.

At first thought it was a little weird that McCain answered Warren Buffet to the Secretary of Treasury question since Buffet is an Obama supporter. Then I realized that this is McCain's strategy: take the wind out of Obama's sails even when that reaches non-sensical proportions.

The most important thing we learned from last night’s debate came after it ended. Barack and Michelle Obama stayed in the hall to shake hands and speak with every single audience member, taking pictures, signing autographs, laughing, and looking genuinely interested and relaxed. I have no doubt Sen. Obama won many votes from those undecided voters during that time, and if anyone other than C-SPAN had shown that interaction, he would have won many more.

In contrast, John and Cindy McCain left the hall after about 5 minutes.

I'm a Clinton supporter who has had trouble getting on the Obama train. It is easier today after hearing McCain talk in the debate last night about health care. McCain started with a few specifics and then switched right over to fear tactics--that bit about not having a "choice" if the government provides health care and regulates the industry. Right, like people are "choosing" not to have health care. Isn't it great the choices we have when the republicans ensure deregulation. I wonder if the Republicans will bring back that fictional couple that they used in the eighties to defeat the Clinton plan. What were their names?

Edward Helmrich,

The Pope does not support the war in Iraq.

How does that strike you?

I'll be voting for "That one."

pls note, Brian, and hopefully you or your guest(s) will mention this: once again, McCain didn't mention the middle class...

I'm beginning to feel McCain is getting very poor advice.. I think his handlers are out to lunch.. they really think he can win the election with those lame, last-minute Palin barbs about how Obama is consorting with terrorists and things of this sort?? if there really WERE something to that story we would all know it already... if those stories were true no way would the mainstream media ignore them.. (and if anybody still has any doubts whether or not the press would be willing to go after a Democrat all they have to do is look at the years 1998-1999 (the Lewinsky years...;)

I am perplexed that there are still so many undecided voters at this late date after 2 dozen public debates and so much media coverage and with all the candidates positions on all the issues having been on their websites for so many months.

How can it be that there are still so many people who can't decide?

Mr. Helmrich, Vice-Presidential Candidate Joe Biden is Catholic. If he can be on Obama ticket certainly you have the full right to decide for yourself.

Your religious organization can certainly teach what it thinks is right, but you should not in any way feel obligated to follow their suggestion. You should feel obligated to use your own mind and pick the candidate you think is best for the country and world.

If your church say things like that to you, you should also perhaps remind them that in this country religious organizations do not have the right to tell citizens what candidates they can or can't vote for.

In his acceptance speech at the Republican Convention, McCain claimed that he respected Obama.
He sure has a funny way of showing his respect. At their 1st debate, McCain refused to make eye contact with Obama. At their 2nd debate, McCain referred to Obama as "That One".

It's been widely reported by many cable news pundits that McCain has a deep personal dislike of Obama. McCain's behavior towards Obama is disgraceful and totally Unpresidential.

McCain has become the ultimate Anti-Gravitas candidate.
Hopefully, McCain and Palin will get the crushing, humiliating defeat which they so richly deserve.

The Catholic Church is teaching us more and more that Catholics can not vote for candidates that vote for legal abortion, euthanaia, cloning, embryonic stem cell research, or same sex marriage. (See John Paul II, 'Evangelium Vitae', and other documents.) As a Catholic, it would have been nice to try to figure out which candidate has the better policy on different issues, but Mr. Obama has already disqualified himself for my vote because he is pro-choice, etc. I wonder what will happen if the Church succeeds in teaching it's people, and if Catholics vote according to their correct conscience.

If John McCain knows how to catch Bin Laden, why doesn't he give this info to George W. Bush ASAP?

Tom Brokaw was so annoying with his whining about time limits that I was hoping he’d fall thru a trapdoor.

As Celebrity Journalists, Brokaw, Lehrer, Schieffer, and Ifill have a superficial, wafer thin understanding of the issues.

Undecided Voters at the townhall debate also had a superficial, wafer thin understanding of issues and lacked the knowledge to ask challenging, intelligent questions.

Give me Subject Experts over Celebrity Journalists or Undecided Voters any day of the week.

Every listener/commenter should contact CPD
Commission on Presidential Debates
1200 New Hampshire Avenue, NW
Box 445
Washington, DC 20036
and demand they change these stupid debate formats. Debates should run 3 hrs with 7 min to answer questions and 3 min for rebuttals.

We need 8 or 9 single issue debates running 3 hrs each where Prez candidates get questioned by panels of think tank scholars and print reporters who are experts on economics, foreign policy, energy, healthcare, etc
Same for VP candidates – 3 or 4 single issue, 3 hr debates with questions from expert panels.

Eva, You misuse the word racism. As someone originally from the midwest, I could feel perhaps "studied" and looked over in an anthropological sense by the article, but Packer in no way makes racial statements about midwesterners. You are seeing hatred and division where it doesn't even exist.

George Packer just wrote an article in the recent New Yorker Mag about lower-income undecided voters in Ohio, which is worth reading:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/10/13/081013fa_fact_packer?currentPage=all

He gives a great description of what one of the undecideds, Barbie Snodgrass, is going through financially. Oddly, in the end he ends up really painting these particular lower-income voters as a bunch of physical grotesques. Between "gangly" and "overweight" and "white-haired, white-skinned old ghost of a woman", I guess there's a real dearth of Packer-amenable body types.

It's weird, because he's trying to make the point that some lower-income undecided voters feel they can't understand the overachieving Harvard-educated Barack. And then the overachieving Yale-educated Packer writes about these people in a manner that's completely elitist. I came away from it less shocked by midwestern racism than by Conde Nast-ee elitism.

On the other hand, at least someone in the media is paying attention to what lower-income undecideds are going through financially. And actually quoting them.