wnyc.org / 93.9fm / am 820

Thomas [#234}: For some insight into this, read "The Great Arizona Orphan Abduction". Before the American Civil War, white New Yorkers, largely of English descent, wanted to rid themselves of Irish Catholic orphans, of which there were many and whom they did not consiser to be white. They were routinely shipped to rural areas for adoption by farmers who needed cheap labor. This book details how some were sent to Arizona, where the Catholic parishes had local families adopt them. The Catholics in Arizona were Mexicans. The Whites there were protestants, who kidnapped the orphans after they found that Mexicans were raising white kids. White has obviously been a shifting term here in America.

While Ayanna makes what might be a useful distinction between the terms 'Black' and 'African American', this distinction is only useful when everyone involved in a discussion at least understands the distinction she's making, whether they agree that it's the most legitimate definition of the terms or not. This is fine if she wants to write a book. Readers would know in the text that followed exactly what was meant, but to impose this on a days-old discussion is unreasonable. It also assumes that this disticntion is important to all the speakers. I'm not sure that a black African would find it important if he or she were living here and was now enmeshed in the American situation, whether his or her views of the American situation were within the range of opinions commonly held by Black Americans whose families have lived here for generations or not. To that black African, the distinction might seem to simply be a means to marginalize their opinion whenever if diverged from what Black Americans commonly believe. In this setting, it's probably better to simply use the terms interchangeable, as in common parlance, and then distinguish between people with different heritages when you feel it's necesary to make your point.

Two cowards!!

Tomas is it? Let's see is that? German,Jew,Croat and Serb, Chechen,Russian,Greek, Albanian, Basque,English, Irish, Pole or Spaniard in the homogeneous clump in New York?

Bravo Ayanna!

"African American" is a term that refers to the culture and people who descended from mainly West African peoples who were brought to the United States as slaves. "Black" is a larger group which encompasses the first, but also encompasses all members of the Sub Saharan African Diaspora, including Africans, African Americans, Afro-Caribbeans, Afro-Europeans, Afro-Brazillians, Afro-Canadians, etc. You get the picture. The fact that some people use the words "African American" and "Black" interchangeably can be confusing, but they have different meanings. Tomas's example therefore makes no sense. A white Zimbabwean is NOT an African American in the accepted sense, and neither is a Black woman from Germany.

Is Obama African American? Not by ancestry, but culturally, I'd say yes, he can legitimately identify as African American.

Just re-read #121, based on #233. My wife was pregnant last year. Our experience was that older, 40's and up, riders were the quickest to offer her a seat. Those who appeared under 40 rarely offered a seat. We noticed no trends among race/ethnicity.

Tomas
not enough info
but the white woman is an European-African American.
i guess the black woman is an African-African American if all of her forbearers where from Africa and if she was mixed with Europeans she's a African European African American.
am I right?

In fact, why don't we all ignore race. There's no disparity among races. Nothing to see here. Nothing to measure. I know there was slavery and all that, but gee wiz, I saw The Patriot (2001 film), and those slaves weren't even really slaves after all. We're just all making a lot out of nothing.

In fact, it's probably just our measuring of the problem that creates it. Taking polls, any surveys based on race is only acknowledging a problem which isn't there in the first place. Make sure we don't take any surveys of our prisons either. Certain races just need to try harder, but I won't say which those are.

re: Tomas

Gee Tomas, I guess you're right. There's no Black and White in America and your well reasoned anecdotal evidence has shown me how the Civil Rights movement was really about nothing at all.

I experienced "driving while black" more than once when my Aunt's boyfriend drove my Aunt's car. That's in "tolerant" San Francisco... I can only imagine it's worse in some other places.

That said, I thought the "smiling v. justice" bit was apt, and I fear that a President regardless of race will be in a bubble... he may or may not be politically courageous and try to repair injustices.

Two people win a green card. One of them is a "white" farmer's daughter from Zimbabwe. Her family have lived there for 3 generations. She has never been out of Africa and has basic education. She is married to a black man from Africa. She is taking a ride on a New York subway, looks across and sees a "black" girl her age. The black girl happened to have won a green card as well. The black girl's family have lived in Europe for 3 generations. The black girl was born in Moscow, Russia, educated at the PhD level in Berlin, Germany, married a white man from Barcelona, Spain. She has never been to Africa. Who is African-American here??????

It is very interesting how Germans and Jews, Croats and Serbs, Chechens and Russians, Greeks and Albanians, Basques and Spaniards, the English and the Irish, Poles and Ukrainians just become a homogeneous clump in New York you Brian call "Whites". How is all the history forgotten. Countless wars, atrocities, discrimination, rapes, terror, prejudices etc. Please enlighten me as to how this is before you use the term. I have lived half my life in Europe and half here and I still don't know what you mean when you say "whites".
The same applies to Blacks. How is it that Hutu,Tutsi, Yuru, Zoruba, Zulu, Maasai, Bantu, Dinka with all their cultural diversity, violent history are the same. How are Haitians the same as Blacks who were born and grew up in Europe and moved here?
____________________________________________________

#121, for what it's worth (it's late in the day now). I have never posted on this board or called in to the show, though I've been listening for 15 yrs. I usually only catch the show when it repeats in the middle of the night. I am married to a white jew and I have simply done an informal poll of my friends, colleagues and fellow posters on Urban Baby. There is a consensus on this. Sorry.

Lions, tigers & bears, Oh my!

are they still watching us, oh dear

Wow, some of these comments smack of a 'meet me behind the bikesheds' or a 'high noon' kind of spur-on. Lacking of true content.

Thanks Pomeranianzdad I agree.

wow! not only angry, but arrogant as well

Liv is invisible.

Mike,

DITTO (not sarcasm)

(Hmm we may have a breakthrough here). I am sure we will disagree in the future but I look forward to the it, since we are both of the "human race" and smart too. I am sure it will be interesting.

Can't wait for tomorrow's topic, no one left here to antagonize except Liv and that is pointless so until tomorrow HJS and Mike! Oh yeah and BL moderator.

Truth

what is it you want to say to me that you'd like me to email you?

Liv,

I understand your frustration. When someone makes blanket statements like "you people..." and "You all will never get it!", those generalizations hinder real progress.

Hopefully, you and I and all of us can continue to progress.

Peace...

Directly TO LIV, do not pass go, do not collect $200 dollars, for your eyes only and no one else read.

Dear Liv,

You ARE WHAT I THOUGHT YOU WERE.

Have a wonderful day.!

Sincerely,

The Truth

thetruth611@yahoo.com

the truth admits: "Mike, I like you."

truth: If I didn't like you and respect your opinions, I wouldn't respond to you.

Mike,

I like you.

HJS,

see post 212 sweetie (did i just call him sweetie?)

Truth
I have no idea what your comment means or who you think you're targeting with it. You do not know me. It is impossible for you to. Please refrain from commenting further in such a personal manner to me.

hjs

No, I have heard that kind of division myself, i.e. Black Americans needing to separate their lineage from newly arrived immigrants. In fact, that is how "Black American" has come into usage. We can no longer truly know if someone is African American, as in the lineage of former slaves. What is then the issue of racism if it has nothing to do with the man's race? What shoould I say makes him black? The quality of his hair? His skin tone? Features? Then can the differences be closer identified as behavioral and not racial? Well, that's more comfortable to address, right?

I see your point.

the truth states: "Mike, You are just friggin hilarious this afternoon"

truth: sarcasm will get you everywhere with me!

Liv,

Did you hear me personally "claim" Senator Obama? There is no Black spokesperson. There lies the problem!!

Fess up, who the hell is speaking on my behalf to Liv?

You all will never get it!

[[BL Moderator Writes: I would just like to say that I'm impressed with the level of discourse on today's comments pages. We all know that things can sometimes get a little heated when it comes to these issues (and this comments board!), but this discussion has generally proved why we think we have the smartest and most engaged listeners in all of radio. Thanks!
-BL Show-]]

Mike,

You are just friggin hilarious this afternoon!

Liv,

You are, what I thought you were.

HJS

ok then great!

the truth declares: "All of this malcontent over pigmentation!!"

As a bumper sticker I once saw in the Florida panhandle said: "If I'd known it was going to be this much trouble, I would've picked the d*amned cotton myself"

truth
sorry you are assimilated

Liv

well tell me this, other than his skin color what makes him black?
mind u i don't care what 'race' he is. i just don't want mccain to win.
speaking of "Black America, if i were black i would be somewhat p'ss if this half kenyan become the first black pres. he shares nothing of their history or culture, except that he married into the community. so with his whiteness and his non slave heritage, he is OK with whites but they (most black) still are not.
but i guess black america doesn't see that as an issue. i do understand a bit their pride and claim of him but not clear on that one.

In any event, to continue in the vein of [#120] & [#130], despite its crude application and its many casualties, there have been positive benefits of affirmative action. Many people who would've never come into daily contact with people of another race have been exposed to one another and their impressions of the other are now more informed than some myth passed down on their mother's knee. While it hasn't quite come to the point where there are no others, and may never, progress has been made and will continue to be made. This leads me to a cautious optimism with regards to race relations in America, at least in the long run. So while the truth states: "This race issue in America is hopeless. Misconceptions, False identifications and finger pointing, not me you, not you me," I respectfully disagree.

Also,

They are incompatible cultures, because one culture fears the other.

Guess which way it goes?

HJS,

Then in that case I agree with you and just because I wear a "Skirt Suit" and tie to work doesn't mean I am assimilating. It just means I have a mortgage to pay.

truth 195

sorry to be unclear. I'm saying living in a subculture incompatible with the majority culture might cause some people to lose the benefits of being part of the majority culture.

hjs

I see your point. I do, but I just think sometimes that remark, which I have seen first hand really p*ss off Black Americans (and I see why), sometimes doesn't take into account another type of diversity in which a Black American man can be extremely well educated and well spoken and have an non-identifing rhythm of speech and STILL be Black and not be identified as White.

All of this malcontent over pigmentation!!

Liv,

There you go again, you are NOT Mike! Mike is holding his own.

The fact that you are asking me what the truth is as I see it, indicates to me that you are non Black.

Mike @ post 177 - Bitterness.

Jazz hands and smiling now.....the this make you feel more comfortable, now can you see the bitterness??

This race issue in America is hopeless. Misconceptions, False identifications and finger pointing, not me you, not you me.

liv
sorry just keeping it real. i know the pc types don't like that. doubt it makes me a racist but ok if that helps go for it.
but we could take count
1 there is no race except the human race (white and black is in our mind)
2 Ayanna 135 said he might be white, is that racist?
3 he has a white kansas mother (no one could be whiter)
4 he was raised in hawaii & indonesia, where few other blacks are found
5 fancy private high school
6 fancy law school
so what makes him black? his Kenyan father, who left when he was young? what does that have to do with the african american experience of the last 300 years?

the truth replies: "Mike, I didn't call you a racist, I said you had a superior attitude, Most males do! But white males often feel the need to enlighten people of the obvious. Also, I didn't realize that you needed the visual (Italics) to identify the tone."

Perhaps the remark about the italics was also sarcastic. Text is different from speech and you really can't fault someone too much for failing to note your intonation.

As for the racism remark. No you didn't call me a racist. It was the second point of my post although I admit the transition ewasn't too obvious. But again, this is informal e-chat and not polished text intended for publication.

Truth

Just what is the "truth" as you see it? You feel so strongly that it is where you're coming from you have named yourself The Truth, but just what is that? I think you haven't done anything but make sweeping statements about the topic, most recently to someone who identifies himself as Mike.

One more thing for ya Liv, IF they think I am "angry" they think the same of YOU!

hjs,
just read your post
don't bother buying/reading the Lakoff book (I did, it's expensive!), he does such a good job explaining his theory on the radio shows. The Wilentz book I haven't read, but I'm next on the list for it at the library. Check u later...

HJS,

First,If my underwear were showing I would get arrested for indecent exposure. I will give you a second to figure that out.

and second, are you saying NOT assimilating is wearing saggy pants and a white tee?

#183, Ayanna,
Good post. The one thing I think we all have in common here is THE important thing. We all realize that this administration is broken. We need someone who can lead (and someone who can speak in complete sentences.) Obama looks like the guy for that.
I hope in all these discussions about race, which can be divisive but also healing, we keep in mind that our priority is to re-establish a sane government. It's a tall order for a junior senator, but I'm willing to give the guy my vote... right now our problems as a group far transcend race.
But you can't exactly separate it, either. Look at our crazy, corrupt prison system, disproportionately black inmates or disproportionately poor inmates? A shockingly large number of those guys are in there for missing parole - know why people miss parole? #1 reason: Chemical dependency. So we're spending out our ears to imprison people we could treat with a drug rehab program.... sigh.
Gotta sign off now...

Liv,

Surprise, I realize this is a "posting board" but if you are going to post at me, then post from your own brain, I assure you, you can't handle the truth!!

@173
hjs-
Sorry, THAT is exactly the kind of remark that falls into the 'covert racism' pile. Obama is the whitest black man? It's like Biden remarking that Obama is so "well spoken". Well, so is Al Sharpton. His grammar is perfect, he is intelligent, but he has what is a distinct African American cadence to his speech which probably would disqualify him in someone's books as "well spoken".

eva
ugh! it's on a long list of things i should read. thanks for the info.
he was on BL also with this book i think, heard him somewhere.

Hey Dude,

I am neither, just an American. I was responding to Ayanna's post #142. However, I don't think it should be on an application or used (except maybe the census) anywhere in the States.

betch you are.......

ok what ever you say. if i'm walking behind you can i see your underware?? do you dress like a thug or do you wear a suit and tie sometimes to ur fancy job?

Mike,

I didn't call you a racist, I said you had a superior attitude, Most males do! But white males often feel the need to enlighten people of the obvious. Also, I didn't realize that you needed the visual (Italics) to identify the tone.

Liv,

Express your own opinion, don't be a follower be a leader, the view is much better!!

hjs,
have you seen this George Lakoff book?"The Political Mind: Why You Can't Understand 21st-Century American Politics with an 18th-Century Brain." I heard Lakoff speak recently. He was really good. I think you would like the book. There's another book that came out recently that I think is in line with this book, it's by Sean Wilentz, called "The Age of Reagan".
Basically, Wilentz notes this sea change during the Reagan era which he says began in 1974, and Lakoff also goes back to Nixon, and shows how smart the GOP was about linguistics/language/semantics. Lakoff thinks the great thing about Obama is how he's reframing the discussion - instead of just countering what the right is saying. He relates all this to neural pathways we've already trod in our brains. I can't explain it as well as he does, but you should read it, or you can listen to it online, I think he was a guest on Fresh Air and one of the WNYC shows.

Ayanna,

Agreed.

Mike @ 176

I am not entirely sure what your response means, and yes Truth, I have been looking through and reading and reacting to other comments. This is a posting board and not a chat room. so my comment doesn't have to directly follow the last comment.

Mike, please do not let defensiveness take over your honest attempts at engagement. when you claim that Blacks "accuse White people of racism whenever White people do anything but agree," what do you mean? When we talk about race, I don't care who you are, you are going to have baggage; you are going to have issues. Neither black people nore white people nor anyone else is exempt. Very few of us can claim to be without prejudice all the time. But the minute we start down the road of "the problem is not me; it's THEM"... self-reflection stops and the blame game kicks in. And honest discussion becomes very difficult.

HJS,

I am not assimilating, and making it just fine.

back...

Eva, Agreed.

Re #152 "the truth"

Your point isn't made. Are you saying such people should not be allowed to check White or that it is not OK for them to check White but it is OK for them to check Black?

(nice name by the way, let me guess, you're either an Objectivist or Libertarian)

eva
never mind, thought u were in OR,
Merkley is dem running for senate in OR. hoping to break the filibuster (56 dem plus 5 moderate northeast GOP to help pres obama) looks like al franken isn't going to the senate either.

Annya 135

I see what you're saying but you would agree that if Obama said he was White, people, White and Black would no accept that assertation.

[#176 cont]: Incidentally, this tendency is what many White people identify 'bitterness'.

the truth opines: "Mike, Yeah I know, I ws just being sarcastic, but see there you go, I was just beginning to like you and you go and exhibit that superior, all knowing white male behavior. Jeez, I mean for the love of Peter, look at what I have been writing did you honestly believe I did not know that Liv went back to the top and spotted something that sparked her response? Huh, huh tell me, I want to know how you think. Jeepers"

Sorry; your sarcastic tone didn't appear like italics on my screen. Perhaps my reply had nothing to do with being all-knowing and superior. I think what prevents the honest discussion about racism in this country that many Black people claim they want is the tendency of Black people accuse the White people of racism whenever White people do anything except agree. Can you see how this is hardly incentive to engage in conversation? It's just easier to let you stew in your own juices and dismiss it as your problem.

hjs and the truth,

I am not interested in "dropping" racial labels so much as I strongly feel that it is not my business to try to force other people into my predetermined racial categories. I am black and am very comfortable being a black woman. In fact, I am comfortable enough in my blackness that I do not feel a need to define the parameters of others' blackness for them.

Just to use the examples of the famous people the truth brought up, you will find a wide divergence of self-identification. Alicia Keys and Halle Berry consider themselves to be black; Mariah apparently does not care to identify herself either way; Tiger is adamanatly multi-racial; and I don't know about Lenny Kravitz, though everyone knows his mom is the lady in the interracial marriage from the Jeffersons.

My point is that, just as I don't care to somehow compel Tiger Woods to "confess" that he is black, neither should Obama be obligated to identify himself as bi-racial.

It's simple: let people define themselves. That's all.

@113 Brie and Chardonnay

100% agree. happens a lot!

truth
come on he's the whitest black guy around. (and by black i mean a descendant of the 'american' slave system)
not that there's anything wrong with that. if blacks want to make it in 'america' they have to assimilate just like everyone else.

hjs,
I'm still out west, but not in Oregon (yet!) Who's Merkley? Where's Paulo? Wasn't he the guy posting on this board who was working for the Obama campaign?

@69 Pomeranian.

I agree about your assessment of The Truth. I do.

#166,
I don't disagree, my concern is how he's perceived by the wider votership. We won't know until November, and after that time, we can look at it and think: well, this is why it worked, or, God forbid, this is where it didn't work. But even then we'd be wrong.
Whenever the topic is race on the Lehrer show, the comments section blows up (high number of comments.) It tells me that we haven't come to grips with it, and we may never.
When my parents defied society to marry back in the early 1960's, there was an optimism - they naively thought we wouldn't be having these types of conversations anymore. I can't tell if things are worse or better. I do think that hjs is right - it's about class more than anything, but that doesn't mean race is a non-issue. There is a black heavyweight fighter who once said something to the effect of: "Have you ever been black? I used to be black. When I was poor."

Mike,

Yeah I know, I ws just being sarcastic, but see there you go, I was just beginning to like you and you go and exhibit that superior, all knowing white male behavior.

Jeez, I mean for the love of Peter, look at what I have been writing did you honestly believe I did not know that Liv went back to the top and spotted something that sparked her response? Huh, huh tell me, I want to know how you think.

Jeepers

the truth asks: "Wow, where did that come from, just when we were becoming civil again."

Obviously reading through the eralier posts.

eva
glad it's working for u.
are you in Oregon? what are you doing to help
long shot Jeff Merkley?

Very Good Eva, then you are now relaxed and ready for my response to your post #142.

I can guarantee you that he is "deeply rooted" in one of those cultures, white americans have seen to it that he has had full exposure to the Black experience.

hjs,
I took a break and started some mellow yoga. It's stress-reducing...

Wow, where did that come from, just when we were becoming civil again.

Aron
Your posting sounds ridiculous. Right there you capture what is essentially a problematic perception: you assert that White people have no interest in Black culture then you go on to say that Whites only notice race when it makes them look cool to. So what is white America supposed to do? You feel Whites don't acknowledge Black culture, but gee, if they did? Oh, they're only doing it to look cool. And saying that White women deliberately ignore your wife? Sorry, don't believe it. I think you are more than likely looking for it and are mistaken. Just as ROB at the top said when his friend went over to look at a sign on the street and was accused by a stranger on the street of being racist.

#159,
Good job!

eva
i always thought you were calm. but this is a whole new eva, i'm seeing.

Mike, Agreed.

eva [#158]: Of course, everyone will find themselves gratuitiously out of favor at some times in their life, and some of us will find ourselves more disadvantaged more often than others and we all have to find ways to cope with our lot.

I took up target shooting.

#145, Zach,
thanks, but calm and level-headed? you obviously missed me during the Clinton-Obama slapdown...
Mike, I once worked with a black vietnam veteran who had been a police seargeant in New York for several decades, and then retired and took an office job.
Anyway, he once told me of how enraged he was upon returning from fighting in the jungles of Vietnam, only to be denied service in a diner in upstate New York because he was black. That was in the early 1970's.
He told me this story because I was whining one day, which in my case and at that time I had no reason to do. And it wasn't a one-day thing. Mine was an ongoing whine. His story didn't change me. But on my best days, I manage to remember his example of bearing a much greater weight with much more dignity and grace than I could ever muster.
But this likely has nothing to do with your situation. I just think that if you think there's nothing you can do about it, then you are right, and you just gotta find a state of grace. Yoga? Meditation? Skee-ball?

the truth asks: "Mike, What a "coinkydink" I work for a brokerage firm too. (I never share info about myself, any way I digress) You should still pursue these issues, why would you let these type of infractions just go?!!"

Had I had the foresight to document everything better, I would've. However, when you don't record the statements which are easily deniable after the fact, an SEC-appointed arbitration board could easily deem the evidence as non-conclusive. Where would that leave me? Incidentally, I'm hardly alone. Most White men in the same situation either simply move on out of fear that any dispute will harm their chances of employment elsewhere or simply resign themselves to being dead wood. I have a theory that they also become Republicans.

Mariah maybe could. you know if she kept quiet about the dark sheep in her family.

@151--agree totally!

Eva,

I agree w/you and Ayanna, we "should" drop the labels, truth and reality is, we won't.

It is just not going to happen in our lifetime, sad but true!

EXAMPLE: I work with a man (60 years old) who will give me a client's race, in order to make me certain I know who he is speaking of, as if the name wouldn't suffice.

Ayanna
i just was refering to your example not BHO.
in 'america' if you look just a bit black ur black. if you can pass than ur white, if u want that.

Ayanna,

That's cute but the reality is, he could no more check white than Alicia Keys, Halle Berry, Mariah Carey, Tiger Woods, Lenny Kravitz..etc..you get my point.

@Carlo:

What makes you think it's white people who don't include black people in their lives? Why is racism only the domain of the white today? It's not anymore. I live in New York and hear all kinds of racist stuff coming out of many non-white people.

Seriously, this needs to change because hatred and anger is NOT the solution.

Mike, are they drooling in the welfare office?

I doubt it. I was speaking of my career opprotunities at that time. My training was more centered on the developementally disabled. I suspect the welfare office has it's own problems in addition to the low pay.

#136,
Seriously, I think "bi-racial" sounds so weird as a descriptor that I would almost prefer "tragic mulatto." But I ultimately agree with Ayanna, that people should find the term that suits them best. My post was simply to point out how odd and incomplete all these descriptors are. Both Barack and I are bi-racial, but our cultural upbringing was wildly different.

Mike,

What a "coinkydink" I work for a brokerage firm too. (I never share info about myself, any way I digress)

You should still pursue these issues, why would you let these type of infractions just go?!!

HJS,

Now you have your thinking cap on!!

Mike, are they drooling in the welfare office?

I have just ordered the book and will read it over the weekend. I will get back to you on that.

Eva, you seem really level-headed. The calm and reason expressed in your online voice makes me like you and makes me more likely to agree with you. I think that this is an argument for civility on the part of all Americans in our public discourse, whether discussing race, gender, political affiliation, or anything.

hjs,

My point is not particularly about Obama, but about the right of all people, including those of mixed-race, to define their own identities, including the right to refuse to be categorized by race at all. I accept a person's own identification of self, even if it is not visually evident. I include GBLT folks in this attitude, as well, especially the "T."

I did not always have this attitude, but at some point (maybe after the Tiger Woods "cablinasian" flap?) I realized that I have no right to define others, that it's enough to work at "discovering" and defining myself. Life is too short.

But I agree, Obama doesn't "look" especially white. Maybe a little bit around the ears.

eva (and even the truth!) commiserate: "Mike, I think the truth is right, however, in saying that you should pursue this legally if that is really what happened. Then again... having been the "victim" of sex discrimination and sexual harassment in a job, I also think sometimes it is healthier to move on, if at all possible. That is, the more I thought about how unfair it was, the angrier I felt, and the more impotent I become to effect change."

Because I work for a brokerage firm, all disputes are mediated by an SEC-appointed board. They are nototiously unfair.

I'd also like to tell you that I'm far from alone. I've never seen a White men who didn't simply choose to either (1) move because becoming embroiled in a dispute with an employer makes you very unemployable elsewhere or (2) simply accept their demoted status and become a drone putting in as little effort as possible to collect the paycheck.

#137
Okay, truth, I'll analyze it.
Barack is a tremendously talented pol who has risen SUPER fast, and because his leaps have been so gargantuan, he hasn't ever had the same job for very long. It's difficult for some Americans to feel that they really "know" him. We "know" Jesse Jackson, and obviously would prefer Barack, BUT I wouldn't underestimate how much Barack's lack of "rootedness" in any one culture has both helped him - and could potentially hurt him in November. I would prefer someone more "rooted" in one culture or another principally because I think it would help in the general election. (I supported Biden, then Edwards, for these reasons, and also because this election is so important that I just wanted the most white, normal guy available who had realized that the Iraq invasion was a mistake.)
We have no guarantees for November.

anyway i would like to say again this has more to do with class.

but even poor whites think they are better off than poor blacks.
next watch the mexicans move up while blacks are left at the gate once again.

The truth states, "Poste by Mike: The pay beat getting drooled on as a social worker. Analyze this."

Having witnessed a lot of direct work with developmentally disabled people, let me tell you that this is a description that fits the work: low pay and the clients do drool on you.

I still think that you refusal to see Pomeranianzdad bears a close relation to Ellison's observations. But that's for you to analyze at your leisure.

#133,
Being a social worker is a tough job, and, as someone whose job once involved literally getting drooled on by patients, I think anyone who serves poor, sick and underprivileged people has earned the right to express just how it felt. Social workers didn't have to do the dirty work I had to, but they still had a demanding job. Actually, more demanding, and more frustrating.
Mike, I think the truth is right, however, in saying that you should pursue this legally if that is really what happened. Then again... having been the "victim" of sex discrimination and sexual harassment in a job, I also think sometimes it is healthier to move on, if at all possible. That is, the more I thought about how unfair it was, the angrier I felt, and the more impotent I become to effect change.

Ayanna
no way he can say he's white.

Posted by Eva: To be honest, I might have preferred a more traditional African-American candidate, only because he would seem more rooted in something. But I'm happy to have Barack.

Analyze this.

Eva, It is not derogatory it just IS. I like it better than the word "mixed" that sounds sooo, well you know.

Can we let go of the black/bi-racial thing? Please allow people to define their own identities. A person with one black parent and one white parent may identify himself or herself as any of the following: A. white; B. biracial; C. black; D. multiracial; E. "half"; F. "mixed"; G. none of the above...

and it is fine with me! It all depends on upbringing and what is most comfortable to the individual. Why the frequent insistence that Barack Obama be identified, by himself or others, as biracial? This mystifies me, and I think it's a distraction from more important issues.

#131,
it was a great and mind-blowing book, and still is after all these years. Wasn't Ellison's work on his second book lost in a fire?

Poste by Mike: The pay beat getting drooled on as a social worker.

Analyze this.

hjs,
as weird as this sounds, having parents of two distinctly different racial groups makes you bi-racial (the word used to describe me), while if you had two black parents who are bi-racial, you would be black.
This is the state of race in this country - we have never acknowledged the number of mixed people. As well, once you were a "little" bit African, white society traditionally marked you as black, not mixed race.
I personally hate the term bi-racial, but it is accurate, if not very descriptive, for people like me, because it denotes the duality of two parents. But I recently met a baby who was mixed - the baby's parents were both bi-racial, chinese and white. I thought: this baby isn't a half and half like me, she's a quarter times 4! But it doesn't really matter as we become more mixed, anyway.
I think the more interesting thing about Barack isn't his race, but his oddly global family, spread out all over the world. To be honest, I might have preferred a more traditional African-American candidate, only because he would seem more rooted in something. But I'm happy to have Barack.

Invisible Man explores the theme of man’s search for his identity and place in society, as seen from the perspective of an unnamed black man in the New York City of the 1940s. In contrast to his contemporaries such as Richard Wright and James Baldwin, Ellison created characters who are dispassionate, educated, articulate and self-aware. Through the protagonist, Ellison explores the contrasts between the Northern and Southern varieties of racism and their alienating effect. The narrator is "invisible" in a figurative sense, in that "people refuse to see" him, and also experiences a kind of dissociation. The groundbreaking novel, with its treatment of previously taboo issues such as incest and white America's distorted perceptions of black sexuality, won the National Book Award in 1953.

For the curious.

eva commiserates: "Mike, #120, I understand how frustrated you must feel. I also sense that part of your lack of promotion is probably related to something equally unfair - an innate inability to navigate office politics. (Maybe why you went into computers to begin with?)"

Eva, I really don't think so. Computer Science was my second degree. The first was Sociology. I studied computers because there were jobs there. The pay beat getting drooled on as a social worker. I'm really more of a people person. This should be an advantage; not only am I able to strike up a conversation with people unlike myself, but I can write an email that makes sense and am articulate enough that I can explain what to do to those who don't already know. It is racism and sexism, pure and simple. Race and gender are always factors in every human interaction, but they do not confer advantage or disadvantage in any constant manner. Being Black, White, Asian, female, male or whatever can be an advantage or disadvantage no matter where you are. The predominance of White men in leadership positions is strong evidence being White and male still confer advantage in more situations than not, but this advantage is not equally distributed among all White men and the ones with no advantage have a way of being the ones who are disadvantaged by crude attempts to right the wrongs of the past.

hjs, yes...it is possible.

Mike, it has nothing to do with Ellison.

truth
yes it's true. can one be black and biracial?

the truth, who spends time in Atlanta & New York retorts: "Pomeranianzdad, typical, you did not hear what I said and you continue to identify me as "angry". Conversation over with you, you are now invisible."

Is this a Ralph Ellison reference? An acknowedgment that you exhibit the same racism he commented on?

Mike,
#120, I understand how frustrated you must feel. I also sense that part of your lack of promotion is probably related to something equally unfair - an innate inability to navigate office politics. (Maybe why you went into computers to begin with?) It's not always about race, and I've found in my experience that sometimes people - employers or in a social situation - feel more comfortable saying that a decision was based on race or religion rather than acknowledging that their decision was a little whack.
I had a friend who broke up with another friend of mine after a year because she wasn't Jewish and he wanted to get married to someone of his own faith. At the time I thought he was telling the truth, and I thought it was pretty awful, but looking back, I realize it was not about religion, it was just that he'd become bored with my friend, and that he wanted someone with a more mature outlook on life. Blaming it on religion made it an easier break, unimaginable as that may sound. It was easier for her to dismiss him as bigoted, and she moved on. I see this happen often, for different reasons, but reasons of race or religion are cited even when not valid.
But I don't know the specifics of your situation, just thinking based on some of my own experiences in corporate-world.

Mike if it went down exactly like that, it is illegal and you were certainly discriminated against. You should seek legal action.

@119--That post should go into the Hall of Fame for Sensible Posts.

thetruth--you say I have insecurity, you speak of mirrors, you say a lot. That's good.

I didn't respond to your wrong accusation that I'm insecure.

I shared my perception and then, up front, offered apology in the event I was wrong.

So, you claim that I didn't read your words, but what it comes down to is that you don't like what I wrote and now say I'm invisible.

Say what you want to. I am correct: you are angry. Ignore me if you want; this is my last post about this, but I know that your anger will not lead to improvement.

Peace...

a3hr2r in Manhattan states: "I am a white woman, and just have to add a point to the subway leg-spreading discussion that is only tangentially related to the topic at hand. Ask any woman in NYC who has been pregnant while riding the bus or the subway to tell you who was *most* likely to offer her a seat, and she will tell you it was the following, in the following order: 1) African American men 2)AAs of either gender 3) Anyone over the age of 55 4) Women who have been pregnant 5) The rest of women, and --least likely to offer you a seat and more likely to try to take it away from you-- 6) White Men btw the ages of 15 and 55. So what that says about race relations, I don't know. But it tells you that when it comes to common subway etiquette, any woman who has ever been pregnant will tell you that white men are a disgrace compared to the gallantry of AA men of all ages."

Just curious, are you the self-hating White woman with the Black partner who called in with this same tirade a few moths ago?

Karen [#43]: I'm a white man with a degree in computer science. The computer field attracted me because there seemed to be less room for favoritism; it's obvious whether you are skilled or not. I have never had a job where less qualified woman and or non-white person was not been promoted instead of me. At one job, I was actually demoted, despite the highest reviews, to make room for a Chinese woman. The wild thing about this is that because no one thinks this is illegal, your employer will often actually tell you to your face why this is happening. ("Personel says we need to diversify...") I grew up below the poverty line and put myself through school over the course of 10 years by working at close to the minimum wage. Although a disproportionate number of non-white people are below the poverty line, most non-white people do not live below the poverty line. So: I started out with less, yet I always seem to be the affirmative action fodder. Because I have fewer connections? I think so. Can you understand why whenever I hear someone prattle on about the "white privilege" that I should acknowledge, especially if they're a White person with all the right connections, it really pisses me off?

As a black woman, I am tremendously encouraged by Barack Obama's nomination and support among non-blacks. Frankly, it has been a revelation to me, and taught me that race relations in this country, though far from perfect, are better than I thought. Of course, statistics show that there is still a yawning quality of life gap, on average, between whites and blacks. And I do find myself having to navigate carefully in some personal interactions in my neighborhood (which is quickly becoming more integrated as it gentrifies). Also, in any internet forum that touches on race (e.g., brownstoner.com) a lot of ignorant bigots will come out of the woodwork with their racist stereotypes.

But I think blacks, white, asians and latinos who are sensible and humane will struggle on with this very human problem, with hope to guide us and past accomplishments to encourage us. To paraphrase Senator Obama, we are building a more perfect union day by day.

By the way, it not comfortable for ANYBODY to sit with thier legs glued together from crotch to ankle. However, women have mostly been trained to do so from a young age, due to sexist notions of propriety. Men have not. But that does not mean you can spread yourself out like you're sitting on your sofa at home. Keep the distance between your knees in th 6 to 9 inch range, please, for the sake of simple consideration for others.

Pomeranianzdad, typical, you did not hear what I said and you continue to identify me as "angry". Conversation over with you, you are now invisible.

PS. I hate owls, bad omens!!

back..HJS, it is not positive or negative for me, it is just the truth.

My litmus test for race relations is this:

When we are yet to be born, duly informed about existing social conditions, about to choose our skin color, race relations in our society will be generally good if, on the basis of the overall wellbeing that we can anticipate in our future lives, we are indifferent between choosing white, black, brown, yellow, or whatever.

Since this is far from being a fact of life nowadays in the U.S. (if we are born Black or Hispanic, according to social statistics, then we have a *much higher* chance of being poor, having low schooling, ending up in jail, dying sooner, etc. than Whites), then I think that race relations in the U.S. today suck royally.

O [#22]: This is so true. I commute an hour on the subway each way. I have servere vaaricose veins. Blood pools in my legs and my shoe size goes from 10.5 to 12. There is enough of an increased danger of the blood clotting and a stroke that I take blood thinners. It is extremely painful to stand for 20 minutes, let alone an hour. It is better if I lean on something. But I am young enough and otherwise healthy enough that people would not guess that I have physical difficulties. Room will be made for healthy children and their mothers but not for me.

I am a former community organizer for a very grassroots nationwide organization, working to fight for social justice, and all I can say after my experience visiting different types of communities, is: Latino and Black communities are the ones living in the ghettos, projects meanwhile white predominantly live in the nicest suburban areas (with a few exceptions of minority presence) This is not only a race matter anymore. Racism has become economic racism, because being black and latino and any other minority in this country is the same as being poor and marginated. People talk about inclusion? How do you pretend to insert "all races" into a more "mixed" society, when legislators and community members keep on building "affordable housing" outside from their so shinny neighborhoods? keeping working colored people away from "equality"? T
People say racism is a pointless topic, well then we can talk about it later in life, when colored people outnumber whites.

Aaron in Brooklyn states: "Whites seemingly have almost no interest in black culture and certainly never notice when there is a lack of black representation in any field. They only notice race when it 1) makes them look cool to acknowledge or 2) interferes with their desires. Merely an observation but I and my pregnant Black/Native wife live in (north- west) Brooklyn - supposedly a poster child for liberalism and enlightenment- and we've noticed that other minority women who are pregnant/just given birth always acknowledge her with a big smile while the pregnant/new mom whites make sure to avoid eye contact, let alone smile."

First, the largest consumers of Jazz and Blues music are white. Not only out in public where you can surmize that they are trying to be "Cool", but in the privacy of their homes.

Second, if you are white, have you ever been casually friendly to a Black person on the street only to have them completely reject you, perhaps because they believe you are patronizing them? Hardly incentive for friendliness.

Also, if you are white, do you believe your Black/Native makes you look cool?

How many black friends do whites have. That's a good test of race relations
Equality under the law is the minimal legal standard
If Obama loses because of a awhite backlash race relations will be set back
If he wins and has a successful adminiistraion race relacions will be greatly improved.

margaret I agree with you - I live in Harlem in an area where more whites than ever are moving in and in a complex where whites have been the majority since its inception, yet these people never go 2 blocks north for their groceries but 20 blocks south. Their children do not attend neighborhood schools but private or out of district schools, and how did they get variance for that! you guessed. Last year my children went to day camp at a park that has every amenity you could hope for, two children from the complex I live in also went, one dropped out after only a week, the parent cited incompetence of the administration but it was really too many black children not enough white, black children suffer this all the time - why aren't white children sent to black schools same as blacks to white schools - if you are white you have one perspective because you don't live it, don't even have to think about it

Jim, that is exactly why I know, things will not change right now, not as long as white generation 1920's are still alive spewing this non-sense to the grands and great-grands

thetruth, I read a lot and post little, reminded of a nursery rhyme I learned as a child: "A wise old owl sat in an oak..." My perception, and again, I apologize if I misinterpret, based on this topic and other recent ones, is that you harbor and express much anger. I place a very high premium on respectful discourse. I believe truth can be expressed with frustration instead of anger, and with concern instead of accusation.

I wish you well. I, too, want this nation to improve for all.

George
a caller and several posters were talking about it. i did not bring this up.

I am a white woman, and just have to add a point to the subway leg-spreading discussion that is only tangentially related to the topic at hand. Ask any woman in NYC who has been pregnant while riding the bus or the subway to tell you who was *most* likely to offer her a seat, and she will tell you it was the following, in the following order: 1) African American men 2)AAs of either gender 3) Anyone over the age of 55 4) Women who have been pregnant 5) The rest of women, and --least likely to offer you a seat and more likely to try to take it away from you-- 6) White Men btw the ages of 15 and 55. So what that says about race relations, I don't know. But it tells you that when it comes to common subway etiquette, any woman who has ever been pregnant will tell you that white men are a disgrace compared to the gallantry of AA men of all ages.

Emily, seriously, you don't see anything wrong with the last line of that comment by Bill O'Reilly?

truth
but i don't understand if most blacks are biracial why does one have to say it. it's redundant.
is it a plus or negative to say biracial for you?

SHOWS LIKE THIS MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN RACE RELATIONSHIP FOR ME, BECAUSE YEARS AGO NO ONE WOULD HAVE CALL TO RESPOND TRUTHFULLY..
AS FAR AS OBAMA BEING A PRESIDENT WILL CHANGE THINGS..I DOUBT IT , HOWEVER SOME WHITE PEOPLE WILL LOOK AS SOME BLACK A DIFFERENT WAY ESPECIALLY IF HE BECAME A GREAT PRESIDENT..AND ALSO SOME BLACK WILL SEE THAT THEY CAN GET SOMEWHERE IF THEY PUT THEIR MIND TO IT..DO NOT FORGET WHO WAS THE CEOS OF AMERICAN EXPRESS,
TIME WARNER ECT.."IF YOU CAN MAKE ME MAKE MONEY I DO NOT CARE WHAT COLOR YOU ARE" AS A CARIBBEAN MAN THAT'S WHAT AMERICA IS FOR ME..
I DO NOT CARE TOO MUCH ABOUT SMALL MINDED BLACK AND WHITE PEOPLE..

Also Pomeranian, Whenever I have a conversation with a white personm they never talk to me, that talk at me or try to make me the spokesperson for the Black Community. They talk like it is their one shot to find out the internal secrets of the Black Race. Get outta here! I could care less about pacifying whites or having white friends, I do have a few white friends, but I can count them on one finger.

so how do you say white-devil in chinese? lol

Kathy [#39] We are exporting racism? Perhaps racism was imported here. Or perhaps people are simply racist no matter where they are...

sorry 85 -- it is possible to be horny and still respectful.
Not sure how this connects with race relations though there may well be some revealing connection to make.

I am multi-racial.

Race relations in the United States are poor. A clear example of this would be the 300% increase of incarcerated black men during post-Civil War reconstruction when the American government criminalized vagrancy and petty theft and provided few economic opportunities for blacks. This legacy continues--60% of incarcerated people are black and 13% of the American population is black. THAT IS RACISM, that is poor race relations. Black folks have little social control, white people have constructed definitions of criminality. So, white people are the ones responsible for this incarceration.

Good race relations are the recognition that race is a false construction that was established to control people as capital. But on a simple, social, interpersonal level it is the acknowledgment that race not only exists, but influences our every interaction with access to power and to each other. In this recognition it is vital that white people stop invisibilizing whiteness and the power of whiteness--step up, claim how powerful they are, shut up, and let people of color lead...and as white people teach each other about racism and race relations.

Race relations are getting better. I am amazed at all the white people who I thought would never vote for a black man, are going to. At the same time, many, many white people who identify as members of the Democratic Party will not vote for Obama simply based on his race. The US is not there yet. As a white woman living in a primarily black neighborhood, I can honestly say that I am friendly with most of the people I encounter and they with me. Unfortunately there is a barrier that prevents real relationships from forming between most whites and blacks. It requires an openness for difference which most folks seem to shy away from. I do hope that a President Obama would help in breaking down these barriers. I wonder if our own relations improve from within, if we will begin to see positive change in our foreign relations, too.

hjs...yes it is true our lineage is mulit-racial..but i was speaking about Senator Obama.

Pomeranian..my confidence brushes up against your insecurity and I am "hostile" angry if you will in your eyes.

FYI.. I am a mirror, I speak the truth and I will address you head up, my tone is reactionary..meaning, I will let you set the pace for my response, and hopefully you can handle the truth!

I am a white male who just returned from a visit with my parents in North Carolina. I got into a frustrating argument with my 80-year-old stepfather because he used the "n" word. I felt shame and sadness as I tried to explain (not for the first time) why this was offensive. At times I wonder which is more important: forgiving a loved one's ignorance or arguing every time it happens. It's easy to forget the stronghold this type of thinking has had over less urbanized parts of the country.

Think about this for awhile :

In Hollywood, if you're White, you can play a White role.

If you're Asian, Black, Indian or whatever, you can play an Asian, Black, Indian or whatever role.

If you're half-Asian, half-Black or half-Indian, you can play an Asian, Black or Indian role.

Anyone see the movie 21?

The poll makes sense but why is it white and black only? When has this country ever been just white and black. We're oddly obsessed with each other to the point that we don't even know there are other people in this country.

As a black woman married to a white man, I can honestly say that race relations have come a long way. HOWEVER, we have quite a long way to go as a society. I won't bore everyone with the long list of the discrimination that I have faced. It has become common place to me. My white husband, however, is constantly surprised and angered at how his wife and children are treated. He is even more surprised that the same treatment is completely absent when he is alone. A white man finally seeing his white privilege.

I'm really surprised at the content of the conversation here. It seems to me that the big problem here isn't race relations so much as class relations. "Driving while black" may still be a crime (as one caller stated) but only because it's still a crime to be poor. I think Brian is right in that we do define race relations differently. The middle class tend to look at what opportunities a social group is given while the poor tend to look at issues like social justice and the law (both of which effect them in a disproportionatly negative way). If there were equal numbers of black and white people in poverty a lot of stereo-typing would be useless, and I think the results of surveys like this would be different.

Rosie, I don't know in which high school cafeteria your kids had lunch, but my kid brought home friends of all racial backgrounds, and he was not "special" in that respect. Maybe Manhattan is an island in more ways than one, but I saw a huge difference between his school experience and mine back in the 1960s.

by the way what about class here.
some whites don't like 'trashy' people white or black.

On the "family jewels" go to the met and study the anatomy of the Greek classical art, then go to the African Carvings exhibition and study the anatomy of the African art. I think you wil understanmd why white men are more inclined to be able to close their legs. Artists draw and sculpt what they see.

The caller misattributed comments to Limbaugh which were actually written in a NY Post column expressing, " amazement at the civil decorum" of a lunch-time crowd at Sylvia's, while he was in attendance with Rev. Al Sharpton!

I think relations are fair-good in NYC except for a few bad black apples. I'm a Clinton supporter who will vote for Obama while hoping that his election will not empower more bad guys to act even more agressively and ugly that they sometimes do now.

Simple: All of us achieve success or not achieve success based on the combination of who we know and what those people think of us (smart, fun, annoying, etc.)

When you are African American, most white people will have a suspicious if not tainted feeling about you. It's probably not conscious for most of them, it's just a feeling. That feeling however is the difference between recommending someone for a job or a promotion and not.

An over-supply of actual ability can compensate, and some affirmative action programs may compensate at about 2%, but the fact is: everyone is forming cliques, and it's harder for an African American to become part of the clique.

Some minorities actually have an advantage, depending on what the perception of that minority group is by the particular clique.

ladies
the lge thing is cause they like to touch u has nothing to do with race.
legs closed gays or in love, legs open horny.

Just to make a point - I understand the proportions used (80/20?) but that shouldn't be necessary to get the opinions of the so-called "entire" white/black community. Therefore, the African-Americans have a smaller, and therefore less useful sample of voices.

One word.

Katrina.

It says it all. Race relations are not better getting worse.

Also I think Obama will be the next President which is only good for him and his friends but black people I've talked to said he's going to be assisinated before the election or after.

Maybe I'm naive but I he govern poorly for 4 years then voted out of office.

This country is very much segregated. If you have any doubts go to any HS cafeteria or any big corporation dining room and you will see whites sitting with whites, blacks with blacks and asians with asians.

Another very interesting place to observe this: your local mall Groups of whites with whites, blacks with blacks and asians with asians.

Finally, white-flight still very much alive. In the last 10 years, Tenafly went from a mostly white town to mostly Korean these days, for example.

Also, I know two (white) people who knew Michelle Obama at Princeton, including one of her former (white) roommates. Michelle was aware, not angry, and was well-liked and respected by all. This "angry" stuff is total racist b.s.

Although Barack is Bi-racial he identifies himself as black.

Race relations are generally bad. Improved from the 50s and 1900? yes. But still unacceptable. Deeper education and information about our social and economic history and present would give us, especially whites, a better understanding of non-whites' experiences; we might actually empathize. But in the least, we might just listen to others' stories and experiences. I know many white males who individually were disenfranchised growing up (with little grasp of our national history) and who simply cannot and almost will not accept that a group of people now has it harder than they do. We need to talk about race with its personal implications in a less personal and less defensive way. But then again, we'd have to learn how to communicate better in general.

I stand corrected. Obama is bi-racial, and also multi-cultural. A big problem in America, and a legacy of slavery and racism, is that we reduce everyone to "black" or "white," ignoring differences in heritage and culture. This is happening to Obama and, above, I fell into the trap!

Ask most white people, especially Republicans, why Blacks are poorer and you'll usually hear them say "they have to try harder".

This is the problem - one race having to try harder cannot be a policy for equality.

Those of us who are of privileged often take for granted the benefits. The average white person can more often count on his or her friends and family more often than a the average black person. As a white person, you have a better chance that a relative can help you out if you are struggling. For a black person, this is less likely.

The integrity of personal responsibility is the key to blacks advancing themselves as individuals. Justice is in the courts, high and mighty. Sharpton is a financially interested demagogue mired in race baiting for his business model and making this such a large issue. Angry people are angry because they choose to be angry, whether they are black or white or anything else.

truth
aren't most 'blacks' in this country bi racial?

More on the Bill O'Reilly comment:

"Discussing his recent dinner with Rev. Al Sharpton at the Harlem restaurant Sylvia's, Bill O'Reilly reported that he "couldn't get over the fact that there was no difference between Sylvia's restaurant and any other restaurant in New York City. I mean, it was exactly the same, even though it's run by blacks, primarily black patronship." O'Reilly added: "There wasn't one person in Sylvia's who was screaming, 'M-Fer, I want more iced tea.' "

http://mediamatters.org/items/200709210007

post 51:

very well said!

I'm sorry that Brian picked up the comment on the skewed sample. If they made a random sample of people anywhere, you would expect to have fewer blacks than whites!

It is all based on what our reality is. Most blacks are still angry because of unequal treatment. White people do not have to face the same issues.

I'm a white, middle aged woman. The poll esults don't surprise me, becuse most white people are in denial about race in this country. For them to acknowledge that rcism still exists, they would have to accept thweir own racism. I believe every white harbors racist attitudes- the battle is to reocgnize it in yourself and fight it every day- something most whites don't do.

At the risk of errantly reading tone in a posted message, the hostility I perceive in most posts by "the truth" will only perpetuate the problem, not move it towards solution. If I have misread, I apologize.

About immigrant Chinese and other minorities ( I speak CHinese)
They are calling you "white devil" and foreigner behind your back in your own country! they DO have similuar resentments!

Men sitting with their legs spread on the subway is hardly a pressing topic (though it's high on the list of pet subway peeves), but ... I've lived here since '99 and the vast majority of men whom I've seen sitting with their legs spread-eagle have been black and the only men I've seen to demonstratively refuse to put their legs together so someone can either sit or sit without her neighbor's leg grinding on hers have been black. If I had a camera phone I'd have a doozy of a picture from one morning last week.

Just sayin'

Diversity does not exist just because you sit in a restaurant next to a person of color.

The remark that Dennis attributed to Limbaugh was actually made by O'Reilly. I guess, to Dennis, all those right wing white guys look alike. ;-)

jade -- are you white or a person of color? because i feel that white men are more likely to close their legs for other white people and less likely to do so for a person of color.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200709210007

Aaron, I don't care about my own heritage, why would I care about anyone else's?

This discussion clouds race relations with class relations, but they are intrinsically intertwined in America due to its history.
Outside of segregation, which could be largely class based, there are plenty of other situational things. Where someone sits on the subway… Whether or not a lady clutches her purse a little tighter when a Black man walks by… Being followed or questioned when shopping in certain retail locations… There are many subtle forms of racism that White America tends to be wholly unaware of.

I am a "white" person in Manhattan who definitely feels outraged by news of people being stopped "driving while black", inequalities of goods and services available in different neighborhoods. I am also, though comfortable with, and grateful for, my friends and associates who are black (or other), very aware of the different sort of language that we speak and how far we need to go to really understand each other. These are the issues I would like to see addressed to consider race relations improved.

It was said by the super-jerk Bill O'Reilly

its no surprise that race relations cant be good when policemen unjustly kill people of one race without consequence and the priveleged race does nothing to correct this.

Numbers don't lie:

Whites and blacks use drugs in about the same proportions; self-reported drug use within each population is about 11%.

Yet, among people actually arrested for drug possession, 25% are black.

Among people actually convicted for drug possession, 50% are black.

Among people actually incarcerated for drug possession, 75% are black -- and in California, 90% are black and Latino.

We can talk about our subjective feelings until the cows come home, but numbers like these don't happen in a society that has equality.

As a woman of color living in NYC, that last caller (Muriel?) made me feel sick. Her attitude is a major part of why race relations in this country and city are so bad. White folks don't know how to take responsibility for their privilege and check their entitlement to other people's experiences and culture. We don't need more liberal humanist "we're just people, why can't we all just get along" attitudes. Just because there is no overt racism in this woman's world does not mean that there is any racial JUSTICE or that other people do not experience overt and dangerous racism in their every day lives.

I think that the earlier caller, when she mentioned the subway example, was just simply trying to point out the sense of entitlement that white people (men, especially) seem to have when occupying public space. I have experienced the same thing -- white men making space on a subway for some people and not for others. The racism embedded in the thought process about who should get the space is not obvious enough for most white folks to see, but believe me, it's clear as day for most people of color when it happens to them.

I think that Robert from Park Slope is correct in stating that views on race relations are based on race.

Nonetheless, when I attended NYC schools in the 1960s, society -- even NY society - was segregated. Black and white students did not socialize with one another, and there were vitually no blacks in the workplace or in visible positions in the media. That is very different today; my son attended school in NYC through the 10th grade and had both black and white friends, African-Americans serve in management positions nation-wide, and an African-American will be the Democratic nominee for President.

Admittedly, I'm white and see the progress rather than the distance left to go. I am encouraged, however, by the progress in my lifetime. When I voted for Jesse Jackson in the 1980s, he had not a prayer of a chance to win. I believe that Barack Obama will be our next President. It's not perfect, but it's progress.

It was O'Reilly talking about a meal at Sylvia's ...

As much as I personally believe that the country is in a better situation--and let's acknowledge that in 100 years we've come a LONG way--I am still hearing tales of a country that is segregated and appallingly ignorant.

I just had a lengthy chat with an African American man who fears that his children are having their culture sidelined in favor of other ethnic groups--his solution is to send his kids back to his predomninantly black community where he grew up back in Oklahoma.

A person I worked with told me about how in Tennessee, blacks kept to their places, whites kept to their, with nary a meeting in between.

I just think that folks can deal with "the other" in an abstract way--but when it comes to the day to day, outside of most urban areas--they stick to their tribes and shade their perceptions accordingly.

it was bill o'reilly that made the comment about eating in a restaurant and people acting normal.

did race relations improve under david dinkins?

I used to think race relations had come a long way, and then I had a child and learned more about our public school system. Why are white parents in the PS 282 school district hesitant to send their children to an excellent, well-run, predominantly minority school? What can it be other than entrenched, though unconscious, racism? We regularly expect minority children to be comfortable being one of few children of color in various settings, but so many white parents are reluctant to ask the same of their children. I think de facto segregation will continue as long as this continues. Fortunately, there are parents who are pushing against the status quo, but I'm saddened by how long it is taking.

Kathy post 39 - that is because the immigrants follow white american lead and they have no respect for minorities/non-white either! They buy into the stereotypes same as the whites.

It was said by either Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly but it was said...the restaurant situation, that is.

Rob is correct, he is a jerk... not racist just a jerk. I am a jerk sometimes too and it takes one to know one.

I would PAY for the results of one of your unscientific polls of your guests and callers regarding which cell phone carrier they use.

Eric, I agree with your post 31. I have been screaming that on every conversation. He is BI-RACIAL!!!!!

White Mother + Black Father = Bi-racial offspring!!!

My wife and I moved from Manhattan to what seemed to be a perfectly fine black/Latino neighborhood in northern New Jersey a few years ago. I soon learned what the phrase "naive liberal" was all about. My neighbors seem to be doing fine financially, yet I have never experienced such blatant hostility in my life--windshield smashed, rocks thrown at me, trash dumped on my lawn every week or so. I've come to realize that there is no such thing as "reverse racism. There is only racism, regardless of its source.

As a white woman with a similar amount of education as the caller's daughter - (I finished two semesters of law school and went to a fancy undergrad) - I had a tremendous amount of trouble finding a job in NYC. I ended up working as a waitress for a year in order to make ends meet.

I'm not discounting the caller's view about racism. I am certain that her perceptions are more than correct. However, in this troubled economy, people of all races and ethnicities are having difficulty in finding a job.

what about chinese, indians and other minorities? why is it that usually these groups are not seen to have an attitude but blacks are!

NYC and outer boroughs - suburbs, too, are segregated. It's obviously not enforced by law, but by circumstance, at the heart of which is racial inequality.

Whites seemingly have almost no interest in black culture and certainly never notice when there is a lack of black representation in any field. They only notice race when it 1) makes them look cool to acknowledge or 2) interferes with their desires.
Merely an observation but I and my pregnant Black/Native wife live in (north- west) Brooklyn - supposedly a poster child for liberalism and enlightenment- and we've noticed that other minority women who are pregnant/just given birth always acknowledge her with a big smile while the pregnant/new mom whites make sure to avoid eye contact, let alone smile.

I believe we are exporting racism.

I realize that this question is about race relations in the US particularly around the elections but I have just returned from 18 months in Asia and we are exporting racism. I was Penang talking to a middle-aged local artist and he used the word nigger. I was shocked. Couldn't even imagine where he learned it or where he picked up the racist attitude towards Black people.

When I was in Nepal, some man late at night was knocking on my hotel door. In the morning I spoke to the manager about it and he kept referring to the guy as Black. And I repeatedly had to insist that the guy was not Black. He was saying that in that area they didn't let Black people stay. Implying that Blacks were bad. It was again shocking to witness.

Where did they learn this?

Eric that is crap I am 25 and when this generation starts having Children and paying mortgages they will start to hate each other too.

I agree with this caller. Whites still see themselves as better than the rest.

The caller from England points out a view that seems consistent with that of my non-American friends. Race relations aren't excellent, but they are likely better than that of most other diverse nations. Especially in Europe, the sizable Muslim communities are largely ignored and not included as part of the country by the white majority.

I'm a 67-year-old black American. Race relations are as good as one could expect in light of the history of our country. My basic criterion is equal opportunity. Clearly individual experiences will vary, but it seems to me -- certainly an unscientific observation -- on the whole, that blacks are more equally represented in America society today than ever before. Obama's soaring success, so far, seem to me to be an indisputable indication of improved conditions in this country today.

compared to other countries the us and nyc is unique in how well races get along just fine.

class relations getting worse, can't see it in nyc since everyone is either rich or hiding...

What about plain old statistics? If you're a member of a majority race, most of your encounters will be with other members of the same race and you'll have fewer chances for a negative race relationship to emerge. If you're a member of a minority race, more of your encounters will be with members of a different race -- which means more opportunities to experience negative race relations.

The Muslim unemployment rate in the UK is so high (Manchester, Birmingham) because they are all on the dole - the government hands them money and they take it.

One thing I think is ignored in this is the age of the respondents. I'm 26, and I feel like my generation is much more open-minded than that of my parents as we haven't experienced the more overt effects of racism. I'm also mixed - white and filipino - and those like me are always growing in numbers. Barack Obama is a strong topic in this discussion nation-wide, but he's incorrectly categorized as a "black" candidate, when in fact he is bi-racial.

Obama did defend Muslims and acknowledge how offensive this smear campaign is to them. Last night on Larry King.

Senator, soon to be President Obama cannot cure race relations in this Country. (whites are still to envious to let that happen) He can only start the conversation which he has done.

I don't know how well anyone can gauge this. I have on numerous occasions been accused of being rude to someone because they are black. That's not the case – I'm just a jerk.

They other night, my friend went to read a parking sign, a woman a few more feet away took this as my friend not wanting to walk past her on the street because she was black and started swearing at her.

I really don't believe racial relations will improve until Americans (on both sides) get thicker skin and stop assuming they know the reasons people do the things they do.

Obama did defend Muslim American when discussing the New Yorker cover on Larry King. Here's what he said:

"Well, I know it was The New Yorker’s attempt at satire. I don’t think they were entirely successful with it. But you know what? It’s a cartoon, Larry, and that’s why we’ve got the First Amendment … You know, we’ve—one of the things when you’re running for president for almost two years is, you get a pretty thick skin. And, you know, I’ve seen and heard worse.... One last point I want to—I do want to make about these e-mails, though. And I think this has an impact on this New Yorker cover. You know, this is actually an insult against Muslim-Americans, something that we don’t spend a lot of time talking about. And sometimes I’ve been derelict in pointing that out. You know, there are wonderful Muslim-Americans all across the country who are doing wonderful things. And for this to be used as sort of an insult, or to raise suspicions about me, I think is unfortunate. And it’s not what America’s all about."

As long as white folks are on top they will believe that everything is "just fine as it is"
since black folk havent gotten their 200k in a bank , we feel that things are not as they "oughta be". America is changeing ... and I do believe that if Baracjk is elected that it wil change PERCEPTIONS to SOME EXTENT. Look at the movie Hancock and look at the 3 main characters. Kinda liek Barack, Hillary and John Edwards no? (either way the white guy is reduced in role!
We DO have a fabrege egg down there! lady it HURTS when you have to squeeze them! I wish women could have what we have for a week .. we would be much better understood.

Dear Brian,

How you perceive race relations depends on how you view them. On the one hand things have never been better. The Democratic party is poised to nominate its first black candidate. Black media moguls such as Oprah wield enormous power. From this view point things look rosy.

However, at the personal level things look very different. For example, a white person might reflect on how many black or latino people have been over to eat dinner recently. Or a white person might reflect if s/he ever had a serious personal relationship with a person of color or even casually dated a person of color. If not, then how would a white person feel if his or her child dated a person of color?

These very personal examples highlight the depth (or shallowness) of recent gains in race relations. In the abstract, where nothing matters personally, it is easy to see progress. However, at the personal level (where all change actually begins) there is much work to be done.

Accra Shepp

To add to Zahara's comment, this morning I was riding on the train and an orthodox man kept opening his legs more and more. I thought I was going to be pushed off my seat. I think it is gender related rather than race related.

I want to add that whites and black people need to work together to address issues that keep us apart.
Robert is right.
The issue I have is that discussing race instantly makes people uncomfortable. Getting to the point where we trust one another to be friends is the challenge.

#19

Did ever occur to you that people lean on the pole because they have a back problem and no one will give them a seat so they lean on the pole so they don't collapse. Not all disabilities are visible.

What is this lady talking about? People of ALL colors are rude on the subway! Welcome to NYC! Ha.

That comment about men spreading their legs on the subway? BLACK MEN DO THAT TO ME! They won't bring their legs in, while white men do. So it's equally bad relations all the way around.

NO MAN SITTING!!! I disagree with the caller, I see white / black young men behave exactly the same when it comes to subway etiquette. I personally hate POLE LEANERS!!!!

It's true; I never move for African Americans on the subway.

...What?

(This is not to say that I think race relations are in any way good in this country. It's just a really odd critique.)

I noticed the crowd shot at the All Star Game last night and all were white, compared with a good percentage of blacks and Hispanics on the field.

Kira you are the first Black European that I have ever heard express that sentiment. I have always heard it was different.

The survey has a very skewed sample - many more white people were surveyed, (1338 whites, 297 blacks). As a white person, I agree that the terms are what makes the difference - without out right public conflict, white people may feel that relations are good, but white people are blind to the subtle discrimination that non-whites face every day.

Lets not forget how other people of color are treated. Also no one wants to hear your personal anecdotes.

I think race relations are generally bad. Not horrible, but not very good. I just think about the media coverage of Obama and all of the issues he still has to deal with. He gets raked over the coals because of Rev. Wright while McCain doesn't have to distance himself from Rev. Hagee and others. I have a terrible feeling that McCain will win because a lot of people won't vote for a black man. They'll deny it of course.

BTW, I think you'd get similar responses to a poll about females in the workplace. Those in power, i.e males, think it's better than it is.

Race relations in this country stink, plain and simple. I see and hear racist remarks from all sides all the time. It's not even always "aside', as it were, but open and blatant. I certainly think racism will affect the election without a doubt. Racism is ingrained in the American psyche and it will take a much longer time than we had hoped to see it disappear if at all.

Carlo FYI..a lot of Black people could care less if they have white or non-Black friends ands that is confusing to whites.

Thus the problem Black, white friends..it should just be FRIENDS period.

But it is not and THAT my friend is the problem with American race relations.

This caller is good. I love the Fabrije egg comment! Awesome! You go girl! My sentiments exactly.

From Open Left comes a brilliant skewering of the utterly absurd NYT headline on this: "Poll Finds Obama’s Run Isn’t Closing Divide on Race":

"The NY Times and CBS News have conducted a poll which finds, like ones they've done in the past, that whites, blacks and Hispanics have different perceptions about race and racism. This time, however, they have someone to criticize for his failure to heal these rifts: Barack Obama.

"Obama, despite having an African father, a white American mother and a winning smile has failed to bring the country together.

"For some reason, black Americans are still more likely to see racial problems in everyday life than white Americans. Clearly, this is Obama's fault.

"In other news, men and women, as revealed during the Democratic primaries, sometimes perceive things differently. And who is to blame for this persistent divide? That's right, Hillary Clinton. Despite her femaleness (and positions sometimes perceived as manly) people of different genders still see things differently.

"NBA fans have starkly different opinions on which teams have the brightest futures. The blame is squarely on former Senator Bill Bradley for that.

"Finally, century after century has gone by and people still can't agree on religion. Another failure of leadership brought to us by Jesus.

Race relations remain in trouble because we tend to focus on the uniqueness of each group of people and celebrating how we are different; whch does nothing for bringing us together.
We need more focus on how we are alike and what we have in common

As an African-American who grew up in Europe, I would say that treatment in the US is BETTER. I speak German fluently, I act like a European, but I still sometimes feel anxious and worry about my safety in some areas in Europe.

I know that there are still problems in the US, but I do feel that I am free to be who I am, to pursue a PhD, to marry my white boyfriend, and to discuss who I am openly in this country. That is a rare gift. Trust me!

we are still living in segregation

What a foolish thing to say Arthur! Why so you people insist on labeling her her "Angry"

Whites seem to view race relations in terms of changes that have taken place while blacks view the situtation in terms of the inequality that remains.

Proximity and inclusion is the key. Too many whites and blacks don't include one another socially. It makes a huge difference. It challenges deep seated racism. You have work it. If you are white and don't have any black friends. Think about that and make an effort to include people in your life that are not white.

Stop talking about race. Its a pointless exercise, most of us don't understand race so all we will hear are people crying foul and others complaining that no one understands them.

It's basic"
Michelle Obama receives a privileged education and she is still angry. From a white's perspective her situation is an emple of how far we have advanced