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Peter, I have to agree with you forum participants such as AWM seem to disregard the be civil part of the comment guidelines. I guess name calling is all they know.

The best way to be patriotic is to simply say

No to Osama, Obama and Chealsy's Mamma.

[46]
Posted by: Wally Bruce
Maybe it is an oxymoron, but can't you socialists do anything by yourselves? You always want to subject everyone to your folly: "move forward together", be over taxed together, hate George Bush together, surrender to terrorists together.
What a bunch of tools!

chris o,
for the sake of accuracy, your ongoing points about the UCC are wrong. Despite the demographic prevalence of white members, each congregation of the UCC is autonomous. your assertion that the "white church elders"... is fundamentally incorrect. trinity ucc, of which obama was a member for over 20 years, is not bound by denomination "rules", because by its constitution the denomination cannot force anything on a local congregation. when anyone speaks of obama attending a racist church, i believe the safer understanding is that trinity ucc is racist, not the whole ucc. (whether trinity is racist is up for debate.)

www.ucc.org

AWM:

I reject your notion that slavery is any more of an issue than other people's oppression. One could say that Jews could never be patriotic because of WWII, but I reject that.

I lost about half my family in the holocaust. It took Pearl Harbor for America to enter WWII, not the burning alive of 6 million plus Jews and countless others.

I grew up with people of all colors, including African Americans, and I reject the notion that Americans have reasons not to be patriotic. If Obama becomes president (which I hope is not the case) I hope that he fights hard for America. If I were to listen to many of the voices on this board, I could be lead to believe that Obama is becoming President to sink this country, and I don't buy that.

And of course, I will continue to say that name calling is a lame way to discuss issues and I hope that some of the folks on this board stop such tactics.

patriotism = nationalism (love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it)

so all those who hate america, borders, nationalistic identities etc...
may be good people - but not patriots according to the classic definition

you can redefine patriotism any way you want (i.e. patriotism means attacking bush, america, coorporate america, the us army, republicans, white working class etc, comparing american flags - or any flags - to the nazis and all the rest of the neo-liberal blather...) but that's not classical patritoism

I think obama successfully articulated how one can be patriotic and still not delusionally think america (or any other country) is perfect.

dissent certainly does not = patriotism

but neither is dissent necessarily unpatriotic

Michael #25 etal:
It is little wonder you cannot separate political leaders from your sense of patriotism. The majority of these posts show that many here can easily make excuses for why they shouldn't have to display patriotism. As one poster said, liberals are waiting to be proud of the country while conservatives attempt to protect the freedom of the individual and a way of life to the consternation of the left. You are to be pitied, and the day you get your way you will be suprised at what culture you have created. Of course, you will not take responsibility for that either.

A patriot to me is a person who cares so much about the USA that he will do all he can to expose Obama as a friend of racists and leftist radicals! Obama has been endorsed by Castro, Chavez, Hamas, Hezballoh, and Louis Farrakhan.

I agree with Tomas (comment 26); Mr. Crouch didn't seem very prepared to discuss the topic.

Hey everyone!

You see how Bob was able to link Obama and Osama?

Brilliant!

Bob, you are one smart dude. You must be able to finish a Rubik's Cube in less than a year.

chris o,

I don't know, I think Dano's question is a good one. What better way to discuss the issue of patriotism then to ask what it means to the ancestors of people who were oppressed within its borders from it's founding. What about native Americans? It forces the discussion about pride and faith in our country to take into account the evils that are very much a part of its history.

To me, acknowledging the evil constructively rather than defensively and understanding its relationship to the US today is patriotic.

Obama's "Patriotism Speech" is a ploy to try to make us forget that he sat silent for 20 years while his spiritual leader Rev. Wright condemned ("God Damn America") the United States as HIV and Crack purveyors in the black community!
Obama is also an associate of radical William Ayers. Ayers a member of the Weather Underground, a group that planted bombs and advocated the violent overthrow of the US government! What do Obama and Osama bin Laden have in common? They both have friends who have bombed the US military.

Many things are required to reframe patriotism, including the good and the fixable, and that also includes calling the USA by its name, namely, United State OF America, preposition included, as in 'part-to-a-whole'.

'United States' is a name with strong historical meaning and the correct source for patriotic identity.

'America' identifies the whole continent.

Correct geopolitical identity is the core point of departure vis-a-vis the world.

Cedric

#41,
AWM, good observation. Although Peter is right that it is crossing the line to claim (or in this case it was just a question so I don't want to disparage Dano) that blacks can not be patriotic because of the racist history in this nation.

I appreciate your earlier use of "parrot" as well.

Peter #41,

Wow is right. Your response to Dano seems to rely on equating the anger derived from being discriminated against when trying to buy real estate with the anger derived from centuries of slavery.

Stick to the parroting of talking points please.

My dad is a trol i guess

@Moderator - if you take a look at Peter's comments (and some other guy called Jesse) you'll see that they always leave one of several versions of the same bait - can't we point that out? Umburu says it better than me:

"A classic troll tries to make us believe that he is a skeptic. He is divisive and argumentative with need-to-be-right attitude, "searching for the truth", flaming discussion, and sometimes insulting people or provoking people to insult him. A troll is usually an expert in reusing the same words of its opponents and in turning it against them.

While he [the troll] to present himself as a skeptic looking for truth ... his messages usually sound as if it is the responsibility of other forum members to provide evidence that what forum is all about is legitimate.

He (and in at least 90% of cases it is he) tries to start arguments and upset people."

A JULY 4th CHALLENGE TO PATRIOTS

FLY YOUR FLAG UPSIDE DOWN

symbolizing that our country is in distress

dissent and provoke discussion

so that we may move forward together
all patriots who love this country
who want it to survive and thrive

you'll find me in Prospect Park
underneath my upside-down flag
and open for dialogue

If we pledged allegiance to the Constitution instead of the flag, then I hope the following line would be "and to the Republic which stands for it," rather than "for which it stands."

I'm always sad to see symbols like the flag elevated above the values for which they stand. It's far more important to protect the latter.

patriotism means blindness to the errors and evils of your own country.

Patriotism means brotherly & sisterly love, love and commradery for all people of the world, making sure that not one person in our wealthy country goes hungry, making certain that all people have a right to health care and quality education all the way up the line!
Anything else people try and tell you is patriotism is nationalism.
Peace -S

Joe McCarthy was a family friend of the Kennedys

Dano:

Wow, your question actually suggests that Obama should not even be a candidate because he may never be able to be patriotic. I am not a supporter of Obama, but I have to admit that you have crossed the line. My parents could not buy a house they wanted 60 years ago because the development had a policy, backed up by a sign prominently displayed, that said, "We do not sell yo Jews or Blacks." I am Jewish, my people have certainly had injustices towards is in the US, but I would be pissed if you suggested that Jews could not be patriotic.

Hopefully the moderators will not censor this post as they have my others. I guess at WNYC when I am called a name, I do not have the right to respond. That is sad.

She's right Brian, what's wrong with equating our politicians to Hitler and the Nazi Regime? There are similarities in the Fascistic leaning of the right and the flags do remind me too and probably many others of Hitler and his regime. We learn from history, I'm getting tired of people saying we should not equate anyone with Hitler, If we don't point it out we will end up with Hitler. You think the current administration isn't acting in such a fashion with listening in to our conversations and eliminating habeus corpus? What else is it like if not similar to the fascists and so Hitler. Stop telling people not to equate with Hitler when, in fact, it applies.

Yes, the Nazis were very patriotic. They loved the fatherland, let us not forget that.

You all know how the pledge of allegiance to the flag before 1942 looked like right?

That the republicans might have taken ideas from the nazis -of only a tactical political nature - NOT WHAT THEY STOOD FOR. Should not come as a surprice. I thought it was recognized that Hitler was a political genious, though crazy he was in his ideas of his worldview.

(repeat a lie until it becomes true. Sounds familiar)
That's what the pundits are doing on a daily basis

Isn't Patriotism ultimately about what sacrifices you're willing to make for your country, it's needs and interests, and the ideals it represents? This seems to be missing from the discussion.

The US is most definately superior to the EU et.al. in our system of governance. Our Constitution is a visionary document that guarantees the rights of individuals while at the same time providing for the citizens of this country unlike the EU which governs by political correctness and the prevailing political winds.

#28 - Emphatically yes they CAN. And even if well-intentioned, it is not a fair question given all that blacks have sacrificed for this country and for their freedom.

After 9/11, on its anniversary, I went to work one day to find that our foreman had posted sizable American flags on both sides of every cubicle. It was shocking to see and off-putting. Anyone who didn't want to be flanked on each side by these flags was deemed unpatriotic. There you have it.

What dopes, you people keep voting your selfish interest, and watch your freedom disappear. Health care for 15 million illegal aliens is a threat to national security? Hahahahahahaha
You liberals are hopeless.
Thank goodness conservatives keep you safe!

[[BL Moderator: Parts of this comments were removed as per WNYC's comment posting guidelines]]

You can find notions of American exceptionalism as far back as 200 years (and probably further).

As for the "American best" line. This fanatically dogma is to be found in other nations, most notably today China. Recall widespread Chinese shock and indignation at global criticism of China's treatment of Tibetans.

As for the real substance of the America-uber-alles line:

How many nations bombed 2 million southeast Asians to death in the past 50 years? How many nations killed 1 million Iraqis? How many nations overthrew democratically elected governments in Chile, Iran, Greece, Nicaragua, and on and on?

At some point a _patriotic_ American _must_ ask whether there is something pathologically wrong with the United States.

My mother told me that in the 20s when she was in grammar school it was normal to salute the flag with the same gesture the Nazis use, and it was normal, even in Catholic school.

Imagine the positive impact an infusion of a trillion plus dollars (money spent on the current wars America is waging) into our economy would do for our citizens? Here is a short list - eradicate poverty, hunger, homelessness; new schools, extended school year, improved teacher training; high quality health care for all citizens; invest in 'green' energy sources and technologies while reducing dependence on 'polluting' last century energy sources and technologies; reinvent our capitalist system to better reflect 21st Century realities…

Instead the Bush administration chose to indebt a generation or more of our citizens with these outcomes - thousands of our armed forces, tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians, all human beings like us, mothers, fathers, children, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, nieces, cousins… are being killed and maimed; a failed economy; an economic chasm of gargantuan proportions between the have and have-nots; an economic policy that encourages debt and spending (consumerism) over living within your means, saving and investing.

Lets’ hope going forward our elected representatives – Senate, House of Representatives and Executive branch – use their intelligence and imagination, and have the courage and determination to redirect our enormous financial resources to strengthen our most valuable resource – the citizens of our United States.

It's good to see a national figure reflect the understanding of patriotism that I think is common among people of his generation and younger.

I grew up not being able to call myself a patriot because the term was defined in terms determined even before my birth (in 1973). It is only as an adult that loving my country became acceptable and not nationalistic.

This patriotism reflects a more sophisticated understanding of the difference between nation, its ideals and its rulers. I hope it becomes the dominant one as Obama (and others?) voices it for everyone who has grown, and grown up, beyond the model of McCarthy and Vietnam.

Amy

Given the history of slavery and racism, can 'African-Americans' honestly be patriotic toward the USA?

totally agree with current caller, Ed. I am a huge Obama supporter, but I cannot swallow "the greatest nation" comment. It has lost its power and sounds flat. Why can't we just be a country that works hard to make the world a better place?

Mr. Crouch you may want to consider better preparation in the future. Too bad.

Michelle is right on the mark. Of course to many non Blacks, the rise of Obama means nothing. This is more an indication of white's insensitivity to the struggle of Black people than it is to white's owning the franchise of patriotism. Michelle said in her ADULT LIFE which means in the past 30 years. 2008 - 30 =1978. Right after the Viet nam War and teh Nixon debacle etc, unless youare one of teh group that feels taht Ronald Regan was sent by god, where are all these moments we are supposed to proud about?

I agree with the spirit and the main points of Obama's analysis of patriotism. I must quibble with his repetition of the blame laid on war protestors for the shameful treatment of veterans. Their has been extensive self criticism on this point and a clear conviction of respect for the fighters and veterans of the current debacle. What did the pro war "patriots ever do for the veterans? Where were their parades? Where is the record of their fight for benefits for returning Vietnam Veterans? They distanced themselves in droves from the overwhelmingly lower class, frequently Black and Latino vets, many who came home drug addicted and sufferingfrom their exposure and participation in an unjust war.

This is a bold strategy. Senator Obama may be hoping to pre-empt future Republican attacks by redefining what it means to be a patriot. Lets see how the Republicans respond.

Hey guys,

We've removed several comments on this thread that weren't productive to the conversation. Please keep your comments civil and on topic, and please bear in mind WNYC's policy on posting comments.

Thanks!

Many of us will see just how many Americans embrace "American exceptionalism" or "American triumphalism" in 30 or 40 or 50 years.

We've had 7 years of a general population, an elected government, and an American media wholeheartedly endorsing law and policy that is directly hostile to principles embraced by the Founders.

Stanley Crouch's pathetic grasp on American history is sickening.

Re Obama's speech on patriotism: The notion he sounded that America is always striving to make itself better is one with which he concluded -- if I remember right -- his speech on race.

i believe Mr. Crouch erroneously referred to Sen. McCarthy as a Democrat. Sen. Joseph McCarthy of Wisconsin was a Republican. He might have meant Sen. Eugene McCarthy of Minnesota but I don't think that would have made sense in the context.

Patriotism to me is everyone can marry whom they want, same sex or heterosexual and same sex couples have the same choice to marry whomever they love as I did.

Patroitism is a 'red-herring' of the monied-and power class to distract ernest, hard working citizens from real issues they (the power-class et al) shamefully have done little to nothing to ease.

i don't see how patriotism is a necessary quality for a politician to do his job properly. in a democratic soceity (which this is not) the president is just an administrator. this is just another way of avoiding the issues.

Obama must prove his lame-ness to qualify for President. He did a lot of this yesterday.

What we need is the end of nation-based patriotism. Patriotism is parochial, it is discriminatory, it is pure chance, it is downright absurd. We need a patriotism of the globe, a love of the earth, a love of all peoples; not an elevation of one over the other, which is ultimately how patriotism is expressed in our modern world.

Sure you can love your country, but why must others be denigrated or lessened? "We are the greatest..." NO, not my country right or wrong. Right over wrong. PERIOD. All praise the right and let's damn the wrong.

[18]
Posted by: darius July 01, 2008 - 11:07AM
brooklyn

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"

-Howard Zinn
HaHa Darius, I rather Sophocles who said some laws are as old as man and to deny your culture folly. "Tell Sparta we lie here in obedience to her" -From the 300 Spartans who denied the Persians the pass to Sparta. Now that's patriotism. Most liberals are concerned with what government will do for them, not what they can do for their country!

Too many confuse "patriotism" with "nationalism." One is based in love and respect and expressed by supporting what is good and working to change what is not (and having the courage to see the not-so-good) in order to help the country thrive. The other is based in pride and a belief that the country is superior to all others in all things, and expressed by seeking to change the rest of the world to make it more like itself, by force if necessary.

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"
-Howard Zinn

Patriotism to me means being compassionate to others, informed and critical of big business, govt and the media.

I agree with Jenna.

What's patriotic about cutting welfare and social services to fellow citizens?

A wealthy Swiss man can look at a poor Swiss and think: give that man some of my tax money. A wealthy New Yorker won't feel the same thing about, say a poor Southern. That is a conservative American sentiment, it is to me unpatriotic, and it is exactly what Obama's type of patriotism stands against.

McCain is a great, great patriot and every veteran is a great patriot as well. AND other non-military ways to serve the country (be it as a doctor, community organizer, fireman, etc.) are valid in a different way.

No Peter, I don't see the racism in the church. I know Wright has said outrageous and provocative things. But you accuse him of racism and you accuse the church of being racist.

"So what" you say regarding the United Church of Christ and its predominant white-ness. It is relevant since you accuse the local branch of being black racist/anti-white. The white church elders could not accept a black racist congregation in their flock. So this racism that you say was happening could not have been happening, that is "so what"

Walt Whitman:
We thought our Union grand and our Constitution grand;
I do not say they are not grand and good—for they are,
I am this day just as much in love with them as you,
But I am eternally in love with you and with all my fellows upon the earth.

Chris,

I am not going to post links on this page (not sure if they appreciate that here), but just go to any video search engine and search on Obama and the name of his pastor, you will get all the evidence you seek. Of course, you know this, and so does anyone else who wasn't under a rock for the past 6 months. But name calling is easier for you.

You are allowed to hate Bush (if you do), but hating Bush does not change the fact that the democratic nominee is someone who has no problem attending a racist church for 20 years.

As far as your comment that Obama's church is mostly white, so what? Since when does the color of a person's skins impact his or her potential racism? You have never met a white racist? You have never met a black racist? Oh yeah, name calling is easier for you.

Time for you to call me a name again because I disagree with you. That is cool.

This country, at its best, is an experiment in radical tolerance and diversity. I wish Obama would emphasize these values more; what I've heard so far of his "patriotism" rhetoric focuses more on a blind, "my country, right or wrong" kind of love for America that seems flat and uninspiring to me.

To me, patriotism means, quite simply, really caring for your fellow citizens, and respecting the world we live in.

Hopefully Obama will go by my definition of patriotism and then we'll have universal health care and environmental conservatism

Shouldn't there be a segment about covert operations in Iran and Iraq?
We need Lehrer on this!

Barack Obama is a patriot of convenience just as his wife admits. He asks us to dare not question his patriotism but demeans others who openly display it. If this man seems credible to you, it by sheer political calculation and probably your own prejudice. Patriotism is giving of oneself in defense of the constitution and national culture and displaying it by words and actions. Funny when I talk to my liberal friends, they say they cannot wait to be at a point where they can say they love this country; Well, like Cindy McCain, I have always have loved this country. What a contrast!

Peter,
Please show me where racism was preached in his church, the predominantly white United Church of Christ. You are pathetic because you go around putting out right wing talking points, in my view invading this board with an agenda and not an interest in discussion. Good luck - maybe you can help win the election for your side with the BIG LIE.

Patriotism means making responsible decisions when they are needed. Obama attended a church for 20 years in which racism was preached, Louis Farrakhan was honored and AIDS was attributed to a white plot to kill African Americans. Obama responded by sitting silent and counting his local votes. Patriotism means speaking up against racism and other national dividers when they occur, not when you decide to run for president.

I think we ought to be less of hyphenated Americans and simply Americans. I think this idea will promote the notion that being a Patriot means doing what is good for the group. That might include things like, many types of public service on a grand scale or on a day to day basis; to be more specific honest political service, the armed services, teaching people to read or simply helping someone across the street who seems a bit overwelmed.