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Indeed, a riot is a riot. Not every domonstration is a riot -- hradly; historically it has in fact been police who riot. Nor does Eve address Donadio's point that we call something a riot if there is tear gas. Think about it: popular protest is called a riot if police gas it!

Donadio is not alone. I note that whenever the Columbia Spectator writes of the police bust of 1968, they refer to the protests as riots. This is an abuse of language and false history.

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Is it fair to suggest that the trashing of private property, including small, family-owned shops, does indeed constitute a riot?
Some of the protests have been peaceful. Some, unfortunately, have not.
Is it really "disgraceful" as you put it for anyone to observe what has occurred and pronounce it a riot?
It is what it is.

It's disgraceful that Donadio should use the term "riot" so loosely and in particular that one of her criteria of definition is the presence of tear gas. This leaves it in the hands of the police to declare anything they assault to be a "riot."

The Times is really an archaic place.

As for the western/southeastern Europe question, I think it's Robert Kaplan who in "Balkan Ghosts" quoted V.S. Naipaul as saying, "The East begins in Greece."
With its twin legacies as the birthplace of western civilization and then the victim of Ottoman (Eastern) rule for nearly 5 centuries, Greece is the starting point for both the East and the West. I think Kaplan says something similar before pronouncing it entirely Balkan because of the Ottoman occupation.

If Greeks love theater and high drama, how is it that the US exports so many soap operas globally? What's the Britney Spears mediafest all about? I think Americans love drama, too, just trashier drama.

And let's face it, not everything that happens in Southern Europe can be attributed to cultural mores.
Sometimes a bad economy and listless leadership provokes a response.

As for their being "mesmerized" by their own image in the global media, give me a break. They're getting bleeped with the euro conversion, and they want to slap the leadership awake.

Greece has been a small, poor country for a long time, they are used to being ignored, they are mad as hell about the euro, and they could care less what the global media makes of this - if they did, they wouldn't be taking the action they are taking.

One should also bear in mind that Greeks love theater and high drama. And they're mesmerized to see themselves and their country being mentioned in foreign newscasts - no matter what. A good part of Greek evening news is currently devoted on what CNN or SKYnews report from Greece. It's telling that the candles in the middle of a student sit-in spelled ALEX (in Latin(!)) - renaming for international use the boy in whose name all this happened. It's also telling that right from the start most everybody in Greek mass media, beaming and overexited, "understood the angry youth" and endorsed their efforts.

This is not a healthy democracy.

The middle class is being eradicated year by year by year.

It is a recipe for revolt.

Rachel Donadio seems to have somewhat superficial understanding of the politics of the protestors, and thus of Leftist politics in Europe. The Left---even the so-called "violent left" is a central part of the European cultural landscape. I wish the Times had a more informed correspondent covering Italy, Greece, France, etc.

The chief proponent of the false FrancoHellenic nexus is bill oriley who described the demonstrators/rioters in France as unassimilated brown and black people of lower cultures but the evidence shows that the Greek rioters/hooligans are white as oriley himself, just more honest and justified in their rage.

A terminological question: Why does your guest refer to Greece as a West European country? Is it because it was a NATO member before the collapse of the Soviet Union? Or because it is in the European Union and the Euro Zone? In European history courses, Greece has not traditionally been regarded as Western European. Perhaps there are other criteria.

Thanks to you and your guest, the New York Times reporter, for discussing this issue.

Sounds like V for Vendetta, but for reals.

New School students last night began an occupation of the university cafeteria. One of their banners reads: "SOLIDARITY WITH GREECE."

http://gothamist.com/2008/12/18/new_school.php

How continental!

The Euro has created a horrible situation in Greece were the standard of living has dramatically dropped for alot of people. The costs of goods are the same as NYC but the salaries are extremely low. The 700 euro a month generation is bad but consider a retired person only gets around 250 euro. how is that person supposed to live. while there is an upper class that seems to be getting richer and richer. This seems to be the trend in the world lately and something should be done.
Today they put a banner on the Acropolis calling for Resistance from all European countries. The modern day Greeks are trying to teach the world something about Democracy, as their ancestors did, and we should listen.

When I was in college in the 1980s and living in Astoria (i am greek-american), there were tons of greek students in my classes at city college. I've been to Greece many times (but not recently -- too expensive!). When greek students stopped coming to study here in big numbers, I assumed it was because the Greeks were benefitting from better economic conditions in Greece. Can't forget the terrific Olympic games they staged and the ascendance of the Euro.

What happened? When did the economy take a slide?

"worst instability in some time in WESTERN europe"

I didn't realize that Greece was WEST of Poland, Romania, or Serbia. I believe that its South and EAST of countries like these. Ms. Donadio, what makes it "western"? its level of economic development? its prominence in the EU?

"Tolerance for protest" sounds like the bedrock of democracy which began, you guessed it, in Athens. The more important question concerns how these anarchists and student activists conceive of democracy today. If it is a class based struggle, does Marx govern their critique?

Go Greece!

There is high unemployment, low wages, too many new workers flooding the markets in Greece so it all exploded into these riots.

What's the big deal? We shoot teenagers every other week in the US, and no one makes a fuss.

Thank God for them they have the decency to make a fuss.

Is it the most constructive argument ever? Not by a mile. But Greece isn't the U,S,, for good and ill.

I was there in 2007, there's a lot of anger about how difficult the conversion to the euro has been for southern europe. This is hardly all about the teenager. But the mentality is different.

I'm not sure that Americans shouldn't be rioting in the streets given the culmination of the last 20 years coming in the collapse of our economy.

Last night New School University students took over part of their school in opposition to school leadership, policies, and "in solidarity with Greece." http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20081217203327320

Last week someone (according to police possibly "the Bicycle Bomber") smashed a window at the Greek Consulate here in NYC in support of riots in Greece and many other even more destructive actions have been spreading around the world. - http://bombsandshields.blogspot.com/