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you people.

OJ...said...but we don't know if Mark is losing a co-op on the upper east and is having to slum it by moving to Brooklyn,

and you wonder why it doesn't remain civil in here.

Well Eva, I could just as easily be as close to being out of my apartment as your cab driver, as I don't have any savings and certainly live from paycheck to paycheck. I shouldn't live like this but I'm an actor and i scrape by as i can without A LOT. Nobody is arguing the severity of any of that, really. But as I said, my imagination of who this Mark is could be just as real as your imagination of who this person is. WE DON'T KNOW HIM and nobody's arguing the severity of homelessness! I think i am making a totally separate issue from the one of poverty, or financial crunch or whatever. I am not talking about that personally. What I am reacting to is several people who ruin the whole debate and discussion for the rest of us by saying certain things knowing it's a faceless forum. And not to go round and round, but 'shut up' is one of those things. You're creating an excuse for it without knowing who it is who said it. And it wasn't just him who said it, another poster typed something quite mean before it got deleted and one of those people I have seen on here before. My ire has nothing to do with homelessness. really. and that's not to say that homelessness is not an issue.

OJ,
On a deeper level, I think we as a society dismissed a lot of the concerns of people closer to the edge, as we embraced deregulation and cut social programs. With nearly a trillion of our $9.5 trillion US Federal Deficit owed to China, I think the chickens are coming home to roost.
I'm not saying civility isn't important. I agree with you on that. BUT I am saying that the temptation to see Mark as a whiner instead of someone who may have serious concerns... well, is that what got us the Graham-Leach-Bliley Act during the Clinton years? "We don't need these pesky regulations, and people who may get messed up by this... they're probably just whining about a co-op downgrade." When in fact, the Graham Act is now seen by many analysts as THE critical factor in the current subprime mess. I'm not arguing against civility, and I take your point, but when my taxi driver says he's one month away from homelessness, I take it at face value. He's just as educated as the posters on this board.

OJ,
Point taken, and I'm sorry someone told you to shut up (and God, I hope it wasn't me who told you that.) But I worked for several years with the homeless, and I can assure you that education does not protect you. I served many homeless people who were at least as well-educated as many of the posters on this board. Here where I live, the people who use the library's computers are often homeless people, and that could well be, if not Mark's situation, then a situation he is close to. And having worked with the not-homeless but pretty close to homeless for the same number of years, I took Mark's concerns seriously. The current financial crisis is not a fabrication of the liberal media (oh, but I wish it were), and if someone says they're close to being on the streets, I take it seriously.
But I do seriously wonder if the desire to see his plight as less serious as he states it is may in fact be a refusal to acknowledge the current financial situation/economic climate for what it is or may be. Do you know what I mean?

wow, mr/ms moderator ... I was trying to steer the conversation away from the bash and towards substance - why was my comment removed? :(

Repub 101. 100%. well said.

Not to keep the ball rolling, but this is a good stream here. I agree with Repub. and I think maybe Eva you're missing the point of Kathy's comment way back when she asked for more manners from the poster identified as Mark. I appreciate the point I think you're trying to make, but we don't know if Mark is losing a co-op on the upper east and is having to slum it by moving to Brooklyn, or whether it's more serious. His post is gone now, but my recollection of it was that he was just snarling and changing the spirit of this segment of the show. I think I was commenting in general to some people who then decided to pounce all over the poster called KAthy when they called her insensitive to his plight. I saw no need for it and have seen this kind of tit for tat bullying on here a lot lately. I wanted to defend what I thought she was trying to do because I have made comments on this site that maybe not everyone has agreed with but I had a poster personally attack me and that kind of stuff takes the Stammtisch-style joy out of this page. Let's face it, if we're on this web-site we're probably working, or affluent, or educated and have some time to spend. Though we may not always agree, and Eva, I see your name here a lot and though I do not always agree with your postings, I would never type "Shut up" to you or make a sweeping statement about who I think you (as I had a regular poster aggressively do to me) because I have NO IDEA who you are.

Point taken, Repub, but if Mark's facing homelessness, I guess the relevant, if not obvious question would be:
can you freeze to death on the streets of Tonga at night like you can in New York? I seem to recall a few weeks spent back in my own native country where it was impossible to sleep inside - too hot. But I wouldn't wanna try that in New York City, hot or cold! But I totally agree with you that it's not a contest for who has it worse. I think we've had 20+ years of desensitization thanks to Reaganomics. Right now the entire Republican world view is in crisis. But I think even liberals have become more insensitive to the people around them. To an extent, they're more offended by Mark saying "shut up" than by the possibility that Mark could be out on the street next month. Not to mention the taxi driver I described earlier. So my "old country" tip: don't think you're better off than Mark. Given the situation, you might not be.

Plus, I seriously don't want this to become a contest for who has it worse. Jeez, don't we all have it bad enough?

I'm from Tonga. And, no-- the poor in that country are simply poorer than the poor in this country, point blank. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

To make things clearer, I meant that the topic of today's segment was "financial crunch," not dire straits. That said, it's pretty much all relative.

Well, I guess that's the question, Repub, is this just a financial crunch as I, personally, like to fantasize so I can sleep at night, or is it something more along the lines of dire straits? Not to sound like Lebowski, but, dude, the fundamentals have REALLY changed.
But I disagree that someone from your native country could call Mark's concerns "frivolous" given the following possible scenario:Mark is unemployed, fifty-ish white male with health issues logging in to the public library's computer to send out his resume (he's very experienced, but too bad, he's too old). If he's out on the street next month, he's out on the street. Someone from your native country, which may (I don't know, just guessing because you didn't provide details) have a stronger social network and better health care, may not freak out so much. Who's to say? I would have to know what country you're talking about.

That's the thing, though. No one is dismissing Mark's concerns. But, if, from his perspective, coffee is "frivolous," well then, someone from my native country walking around with no shoes can surely call his concerns frivolous. It's all so relative that none of us has the right to judge any of each other's concerns.

And if the coffee comment really hurt anyone's feelings, we really need to re-focus on the subject again: the question was of "financial crunch," not of "dire straits," anyway.

Repub101,
Well, I guess we can't ask Mark the specifics of his situation, he seems to have disappeared from the board. But I would like to suggest that we try to listen to people like Mark, not just scold him. Scolding him is one way that people who aren't in his shoes can hold at bay the reality that is hitting this nation.
I'm not at all saying that's what you're doing, but when I think about our $9.5 trillion U.S. Federal Deficit, well, I myself kinda want to tell Mark to shut up, because it helps me ignore the larger reality, which is that we've had unbelievably irresponsible leadership for the last 15 years and I don't know that anyone headed to the white house has any idea how to fix it. But yeah, coffee is serious business (I'm not being facetious) and it's an indicator. I just think Mark is also serving as a serious indicator, and dismissing his concerns is, well, maybe a little optimistic.

Not saying there aren't people out there who are in dire straits, but I am saying that they probably aren't commenting on WNYC.org. Sorry if I am being "insensitive." But those in dire straits don't tend to worry about such nonsense as my silly comments on here-- they are more worried about their true financial situation. That's as it should be.

Kathy,
I essentially agree with you, but when you say you "get worried when self-righteousness leads to censorship" do you not recognize in your response to Mark a similar action? That your taking offense at his "shut up" is similar to his taking offense at the breeziness of the topic?
I do disagree with your interpretation of my defense of Mark, and my criticism of WNYC's changed programming. I have been listening to WNYC for over a decade. It is still great, which is why I still support it, but as a listener and member, I am obliged to point out frivolousness where I see it. To be fair to WNYC, it has changed in response to changes in the city, and its need for financial support.

Repub101,
I hope you're right, and that Mark is just a whiner. In my wildest fantasy, the direness of the financial situation is just a concoction of the liberal media, which is merely trying to tilt the election toward Obama.
In my next wildest fantasy, global warming is totally make-believe, and there is a dramatic reassessment of SUV's, like the reassessment of hot fudge and cigarets in Woody Allen's "Sleeper."
But... then there's that reality thing that gets in the way.

Eva,

Even before this current financial crisis, the number of people in the world who live on $1 or less per day is beyond what anyone could stomach if they knew.

So while all of us have varying degrees of financial issues, based on your logic, there should be no topics discussed breezily on WNYC or anywhere except for hunger in Africa etc...

Compared to life and death issues on a daily basis in Sudan under the current genocidal regime, even issues like habeus corpus, pale in comparison - forget discussions about education, arts etc...

So where do you draw the line? What should be discussed and whose anxiety should be respected so anything beyond that get's a "shut up"?

I'm not suggesting that woman in Sudan opressed by the Islamist Arab regime = mark in front of a computer who may be kicked out of his apartment = loss of funding for arts in our schools. Their not =.

I just feel that all have a place in our lives and certainly in the public discourse.

If not, why bother listening to any radio station or read any publication. Even bai and the nation have "arts" sections...

I get worried when self-righteousness leads to censorship.

Hi OJ,
I wasn't aware that I had wildly accused anyone of insensitivity, least of all Kathy, but I guess you're saying Mark did that, not me? Sorry if I misunderstood? What I did do is remind people that the situation Mark is facing is a reality for many people, and the fact that he still has a job, like the taxi driver, and is front of a computer screen does not make it less real.
For all we know, he may well be a guy who is unemployed, and is posting from the public library as he sends out resumes. But to read the front page of today's New York Times is to understand that the situation is worsening. I have met people in similar situations as Mark, and theirs are not frivolous concerns. To say that someone facing homelessness is just being dramatic... well, I see your point, but I think it is avoiding the obvious. The bill for 20-plus years of Reaganomics is coming due. And it's real. And it's going to put a lot of people in a world of hurt. In fact, it already has.

Sorry, but I agree with OJ. Sitting on the computer listening to WNYC is about a luxurious as getting a cup of coffee. You know you are in a financial crisis when you are sitting on the street with no coffee and no apartment, but not necessarily when you are sitting on the computer debating such matters on wnyc.org.

I am resubmitting this deleted post because I thought it was both relevant, on-topic, and polite:
I think it's interesting that this discussion devolved into hostility when the issue was "lightly" about the financial situation. The reality of the economic outlook for the next who-knows-how-long looks... uh, not good, and coffee is one indicator. But a guy who's looking at homelessness? His anger and anxiety is palpable and real. And I too am a little concerned with the breeziness that has overtaken WNYC's programming. I I would guess that it's an effort to reach a certain segment of New York (those who can contribute more than our measly $300 a year, but it alienates people lower down the food chain, who have been feeling some real terror and anxiety.) But it's not the more substantial WNYC I remember from a decade ago.

Eva

I have to comment on your commment. None of us knows each other on here and there are people who post regularly and regularly make abrasive comments to others. I have read them and think all the person Kathy was perhaps trying to do was nip that in the bud. To wildly start accusing her of insensitivity is out of proportion to this whole thing, which is at heart just a comments page. Just a radio station. Maybe some of us ARE missing the hot-button issues that usually characterize the BL show and for which I definitely tune in, and so we're looking to be dramatic in lieu of them with each other here. You don't know what this person Mark meant by him being 'homeless'. I find it far fetched to liken someone with seriously pressing financial issues having time to listen to NPR in front of a computer somewhere to a seriously deprived person in the street. The point of the segment was to see how we're all feeling the pinch, not to tell each other to shut up.

OJ,
This got everyone mad because we're terrified. Even those of us who aren't showing it. Now even people with good credit are failing on their mortgages, as the NYTimes reported.
No one knows what's going to happen - that's the scariest part.

Thanks, O!
Brian Lehrer show moderator, can you send along our feedback about what's been happening to Brian's show? I'm still supporting WNYC despite all reasonable financial advice. But Mark's larger point - that there's a baffling breeziness/lack of understanding on some of these topics concerns me.
And look, it also really concerns me when a guy like Mark who says he's facing homelessness expresses what anyone facing homelessness would feel - fear and anxiety, and all anyone can focus on is his "shut up." How out of touch with reality are we? This is a serious situation.
We could all be in his shoes. I took a cab recently (didn't want to, but didn't have much of a choice) and the cab driver told me that he was one paycheck away from homelessness. And he was a nice, well-manicured guy, great manners. I felt like an idiot because all I could tell him was "don't panic, it will get better." But the reality is that it might not. Mark is telling us something, and it's not "shut up." We should be listening.

Here's your next show Andrea! Right here. Comments Pages and the strength the anonymity of the internet gives to people. NOT on topic, I know I know I know!

Good question OJ, some have not felt the sting quite as much as others and so this is a lighthearted situation in their assessment.

I agree with Eva and O (33 and 34) and i caught somethings on here that have rightly been deleted. Also, interesting that someone commented about how 'fluffy' this topic is, but it seems to have spawned the greatest debate this morning. Just what is getting us all so mad?

We've removed a few comments that were not on topic. Please keep in mind WNYC's Comment Posting Guidelines, and keep the conversation civil.

I actually want to add something about coffee-- You know there is a financial crisis when starbucks begins closing hundreds of locations nationwide. I know a bunch of people, actually, who are stopping going to starbucks altogether because of how expensive it is becoming. It's actually pretty interesting how Starbucks is becoming a luxury. They were giving away free coffee every Weds for a month in order to attract customers.

I am worried about money like so many others - pushed to the limits pretty much, thinking I may need to rent out my bedroom or something like that - but remembering the character in Toni Morrison's Beloved who slepton sheets for teh first time (as opposed to straw as a slave) - I have ever since looked at my bed as a cloud of comfort. There are still so many people in the world without plumbing or sheets or so many things we consider to be basic.

Financial crises are all relative, people. If the man is used to drinking his coffee at Dunkin Donuts, let him talk about not being able to afford it. It's not as deathly urgent as losing an apartment, of course, but we all know that already. It's just a radio show conversation, jeez.

I understand is all. There are several people who I think ruin the tone of this forum, people who post all the time. Conversely there are smart people who post their opinions in very lucid and thoughtful ways. It can make you see another perspective when expressed well. Otherwise the whole forum starts to crumble. I think the best thing to do is to ignore these people and hope the moderator picks it up.

This is not on topic. Sorry.

#44: It's on E. 13th bw University Place and 5th Avenue. At least a dollar cheaper than Starbucks, with much better coffee, and though quarters are a bit tight, the spot is sunny and warm. It feels very luxurious to me right now!

#38 and #39: Yesterday at Joe's coffee shop on East 13th, the barista told a young lady with no cash that she could pay them next time. I'd never heard this before, especially the way the barista delivered the line---readily, breezily, generously, trustingly. I love Joe's!

Regarding the posts on coffee:
Coffee is a necessity to some!

Last time I was seriously broke was in Paris, and I did cut out the visits to my local café for my morning coffee and started making my coffee at home. Lo and behold, I got a phone call one morning from my café bartender, asking me where I'd been! I told her I was broke and had to make my own coffee for a while. She told me to get my butt downstairs to the café, that everybody had been asking for me for weeks, and I'd pay her for my coffee again when I could afford it, but till then coffee was on the house.

That was a big motivator to get my financial act together. And it was very nice of her. In the end, I cut down other things, but kept things like the café, because they didn't leave me alone and broke in my tiny apartment. It's important to see people when you're broke! Smiling and laughter helps!

So I guess you know you're in a crunch when your café bartender calls you and asks where you're getting your coffee now.
:)

You know you are in a financial crunch when the 99-cent store puts up signs sayong "some items now cost more than 99-cents"...

Like a recent caller I too am on SSDI and as she said rent, food, electric and everything else prices rise and the annual increases do not cover the other increases. Like her food is becoming a luxury for me too. I'm happy taxis and restaurants and businesses are feeling the cutbacks because maybe they'll stop raising their prices and join in the accepting this is no longer the 90s. When this happens things might ease up a bit at least.

what is this business with the coffee for goodness sakes!! That does not indicate a financial crisis folks!!

... when you feel lucky you never could afford a car in the first place!

The possibility of homelessness is not a funny upbeat situation by a long shot!!

...when after several years of no theft what-so-ever, your bike seat is stolen twice in one month

...when you are subjected to hearing the word "staycation" all day long.

You can't donate more to WNYC and you pass up that pizza pie you really want!

I have no kids, no car, no mortgage, no cable TV, have always kept eating out to a minimum...since I tend to live frugally and within my means as a rule of thumb, I haven't felt the crunch much. (But I have avoided looking at the declining value of my investments).

you have to dip into the principle of your trust fund. Thank God it isn't that bad yet.

We save dinner leftovers and take them to work for lunch the next day.

You know you when you're in a financial crunch when you are putting more into your 401(k) than than your current ballance shows.

You know things are tough when you can't take a vacation and even a staycation is too expensive.

When you ASK your ex-lover, who lied to you about having cancer when really he had a live-in girl-friend who finally kicked him out for being a lying dog, to move in to save rent. Remarkably, the dog actually is very responsible when it comes to money. He's moving on in October as am I., Hopefully the clouds will clear.

...when you send your children to China to work in a factory and you get a lousy exchange rate on the money they send home.

when you wear underwear more than two days in row to save on laundry.

...it's the middle of April, and although you're a family of 4, you (stupidly) set your payroll deductions at 4, and now you owe the IRS 12K, and you have to scramble to find the funds to write the IRS check (cash advance on a credit card that's never used), and still feed and clothe your growing pre-schoolers, pay the rent, utilities, other credit cards, and all the other obligations (nursery school, nanny) etc.

..."you start making your own coffee as opposed to making your daily visit to Dunkin Donuts"

:)