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Interesting show. Ms Arinde did seem to have a problem responding to callers who tried to explain their perception of why reaction was so subdued. She kept confusing "public reaction to the verdict" with the actual verdict. As for the whole "biggest gang in town" comment I have two points:
-Young people who feel as a group to have been wronged by institutions such as the police will always employ this kind of dramatic negative labeling for theatrical / rhetorical reasons. Yes..it's counterproductive...but it's somewhat inevitable. Remember 1969 when every white male with long hair was called a "fag" and they in turn called every cop a "pig".
-The Meeks / Seigel responsee was great. In a sense they were saying that it's really up to the more mature "grownups", not to turn the other cheek, but to focus the energy on real institutional change in law enforcement.
BETTER LAW - LESS STREET THEATER

I am a BIG fan of your show, but in this case it seemed that you were encouraging demonstrations, asking repeatedly why there weren't demonstrations, violent or otherwise, even after your guests and callers gave their take on why demonstrations hadn't occurred. It was like you wouldn't take "no" for an answer.

I haven't read all the previous posts, so forgive me if I repeat anything that's already been said.

Ms. Arinde insisted that the finding that the prosecution's witnesses were not credible did not matter, because unarmed men had been shot at and one had been killed. Ms. Arinde missed the point of the trial: how the men happened to get shot was precisely the issue that the Court was determining. The testimony of witnesses was all-important in establishing what had happened, and the fidning that those witnesses were not credible led to the final determination that the defendants must be acquitted.

I agree with Norm Siegel that it is nigh unto impossible to prove criminal intent in cases such as the Bell matter. Criminally negligent homicide is, however, a charge that might be more easily substantiated, and it sounds to me as though the Judge in the Bell case invited both sides to allow him to consider that charge. It's too bad that the prosecutor turned them down; I'm not surprised, however, that the defendants said "no," because it was on that charge that they would have been most likely to have been convicted.

The Bell tragedy does in fact suggest that we need a special prosecutor and "part" of the criminal court system to consider criminal charges against the police. The police in the Bell case were incompetent, and a man died as the result of their ineptitude. There should have been a conviction on a charge of criminally negligent homicide.

It seems to me that the reasoning that it's okay to use deadly force is justifided if the killer says he thought his life was in danger creates an environment where anyone regardless of race is at risk. Unfortunately, our country does not value life and condones killing without shame. Our government(President and Congress abbetted by the press) killed so many with the same reasoning!

Judge Cooperman's verdict was a systemic verdict -- predictable in my view -- presaged by the charges that excluded "criminally negligent homicide," the cops' choice of a judge over a jury and, I believe, the deliberately inadequate performance of the prosecution. It's a verdict that arises out of the whole judicial system's enabling of a thuggish, racist culture within U.S. police departments, a culture allowed to reproduce itself from the beginnings of police forces in the 19th century. In an historical context, the verdict makes sense.

We have heard rhetoric before about the need to reform police practice, following several of the police murders of African Americans and Latinos in recent years. The state and propertied classes are satisfied with their NYPD, which fulfills its mission well: It polices the lower classes, and among those perceived to be congenital "aliens," it maintains a climate of low-level, occasionally explosive, terror.

People of color cannot protect themselves from a corrupt NYPD that the courts and politicians refuse to reign in. The establishment's position is: Let the police proceed as usual and when they run amok we're willing to pay millions of tax dollars to the victims. That's the deal.

Paulo,
I think we're in same boat then.
I don't agree with the rhetoric either but I take issue with Norman Siegel being so resistant to the fact that the concept exists. No one likes any of this but his response could have been constructive.

There's a lot of ppl on this comments page that say the fervor is for the money and that has upset a lot. That there are so many ppl who can't put themselves in the shoes of the widow where no punishment was to be had. The money won't bring back someone's friend, brother, son, husband but proactive and constructive changes need to be made in order to change the "gang" perception. It doesn't help to ignore them.

Darius, I wasn't saying you made the genocide argument. I was saying that is another bit of rhetoric that I've heard before and frustrates me. I didn't mean to imply that you were making that argument.

Anyway, to the main point, I was concerned about the rhetoric. The abuses are not acceptable to me just because they keep it at shoe level. I am not black, but even I am leery about the cops because I've seen what they do.

I've seen them start fights with people, push them into hitting them, hide behind the shield and the gun. I had an acquaintance, a young white woman, who threw a drink in the face of an off-duty cop at a bar who made a crude remark to her, and he arrested her for assaulting a police officer. I had my car DESTROYED by a drunk driver, and the police in my town refused to prosecute the man who did it because he was buddies with a few of the local cops. I've had cops search my car without probable cause because I was a teenager and they knew I couldn't defend myself with legal arguments. There are certainly abuses. I would never ever deny that, and I think it's dispicable.

Firing 60+ shots at a moving vehicle is a ridiculous action which is indefensible, and makes a mockery of good police work. However, the cops were never going to be convicted of criminal charges because those brought against them required proof of intent. They should certainly be permanently removed from the force, and several should probably do time, although the chances of that are slim now. The big questions are can we trust the police that they ID'd themselves before firing? Given the laundry list of other mistakes they made that night the answer is probably no. Then remains the question: Who on earth drives a car at a man holding a gun on you? Maybe its just my background, but I was taught that if a someone has a gun be he, mugger, police officer, or anyone else, you pretty much do what the guy says. This is where the “murkiness” begins. What I think is fair, and what we need to know as New Yorkers, is that idot cops who act this stupidly are severly reprimanded, and so far this dog and pony show in Queens has done nothing to convince us. As for the guy who wore blue today in spite of the calls to wear black, I say show some HEART, why do you feel the need to come down on the side of the killers today, even if the majority of cops are faithfull public servants?

Thank you Paulo.

Paulo,

First, I never pulled the genocide term and I don't believe that to be the situation. So please don't place a term like that unless you are trying to make a case against me specifically. To that point however, the history of medical experimentation and sterilization of African Americans by the federal government is not a new concept either but I would never put this on the NYPD.

Sure, I may lack perspective but that's like saying "oh well, at least they cops didn't shoot me today". I know its a hard job for cops in the City but feeling is there nonetheless because situations like this happen all over the country and we have tax dollars that go to an organization that we (at least I) distrust somewhat. I never said *I* call them a "gang" but that I have no doubt about the perception whether or not its productive. I will still fear the cops unless there's some way to reconcile being able to get shot 50 times and get away with it.

I even heard the theory of the veridct going for the police because the recruitment stats are bad. A verdict against the police would turn away potential recruits from an already low paying job. Not my opinion, just a thought that was said in converstaion.

Well, it is SSDD. The whole thing makes blacks dislike, resent and distrust the police. But this is nothing new, we always knew they were not to be trusted.
All I can say is if a police officer gets into trouble don't expect me to call for help or to testify on their behalf. They are on their own..I didn't see anything

If anyone has driven by the club and seen what that area is like perhaps they would be a bit more suspicious of the cops' claims. The area is almost claustrophobic and one could tell, if one were sober and trained properly whether or not a man had a gun. Also, this area of Jamaica is hard hit with foreclosures now and so whatever else is going on, there is also the mounting poverty and despair hitting that community. Come there. Ride the buses and listen to the people, in particular the younger ones and you will get a much better idea of what it is like to be young, of color and living there.

Darius,

The police certainly have a lot of issues, and I'm outraged not only by the Sean Bell incident but by the verdict, but saying that the police are the "biggest gang in town" is unconstructive, hyperbolic rhetoric... it's almost as bad as the other one I hear which is that the NYPD is waging genocide against the city's black population.

As someone who comes from a country where the police ARE the biggest gangs in town and are involved in kidnapping, gun-running, and heavily involved in the drug trade, it seems like people really have a lack of perspective here. It's a place where, regardless of your skin color, the first thing you do if you're arrested is identify yourself as somehow being someone of importance so that you aren't beaten. I would imagine that anybody who has ever come from a country that has actually had mass graves and death camps would find the "genocide" argument equally frustrating.

Wow, the ignorance is profound. I was born and raised in NYC and am a young black man and given the number of police beating and shooting, for anyone to say that there isn't a perception that the police are the "biggest gang in town" is ridiculous. We've had a long history of corruption in the NYPD. Police are not always the safest people to approach. I think the gentleman who called in and said he would let a mugger mug him because he could be a cop IS NOT A NEW CONCEPT. Its a sad state of affairs to find out this is new to some people! I've been accosted by police for walking around the East Village because their description was "a black man with black bag and jacket" but I had no reason to think they weren't going to mug me.

So please, stats mean nothing unless injustices like the Sean Bell are dealt with in meaningful ways for a long time to come.

Our anger is misplaced. No other cops anywhere in the world are trigger happy because no other cops face the daily possibility of guns on their streets. Our cops must be wary all the time, and scared much of the time--whenever there's any ambiguity in front of them.
And their guns shoot 6, or is it 8?, bullets with one pull.
When we join the rest of the world and get rid of civilians' carrying guns, these tragedies will never again occur.

What you say about families with a hand out may or may not be true Glenn (#41); however, that isn't the rational behind why they are allowed to sue the city civilly. If you resent having your tax dollars and the tax dollars of literally millions of other New Yorkers going to unarmed NYPD shooting (and sodomy) victims, why aren't you more upset and trying to prevent these incidents from happening in the first place?

#42 -- Ed

Any stats on that? interesting

# 36
AFB

First you pretend to be the enlightened man then you make your point by Jew Bating -- saying that the Jewish Torah orders Genocide?? Typical

Me : White guy, but I don't feel that the NYPD carries the respect they claim. I've been (jokingly, but the joke is based on something) calling the NYPD a millitia in NYC.

I will not approach them unless I really have to. The courtesy, professionalism and whatever else printed on their cars feels very hollow when they drive by with their sirens on for no obvious reasons in 10 or more caravan. When I see that large amount of cops driving with sirens on, expect another terrorist attack, or a black SUV in the middle with some VIP inside.

Sorry for the rant.

Any one that argues that this case decision was nothing but incompetent is really unconvincing.

It is more dangerous for an african american man to go to a nightclub with other african american men than it is to interact with the police. but you won't hear al sharpton or the bells addressing this because that would require introspection and not blaming others. it wouldn't draw media attention thus sharpton would wither and die and the bells would be out their potential settlement for their ex-con son.

Nayaba Arinde's argument against the police was really unconvincing.

Lets face it, the 'victims' were not angels, and were in the wrong place at the wrong time. At the same time, the cops were probably neglectful, or negligent, or poorly trained and acted out of this spirit, not in one that merits any criminal penalty. Just let the tragedy be a tragedy and let the family get in line for their money.

Anybody who thinks the NYPD is just a "gang in blue" ought to spend a week in Rio...

Statistics have gone way down because the upsurge in hiring people of color and white police officers retiring not because of new policies.

The comment by Marcel is so tremendously interesting. In little Wantagh, population 19,000, Marcel feels persecuted, victimized. I see this a lot. This idea that whites are trod upon and that blacks are getting favored treatment. It is based, I think, on a generalized resentment of "others" that finds release and justification in strange ways. At the exact moment blacks are pointing to yet another case of perceived bias against blacks by the cops and courts, Marcel feels compelled to decry perceived anti-white bias in the media. Fascinating.

This might not be the time or place for my comments but last week someone was shot near by my house. It was a young black man shot by another young black man. Two weeks ago I went to a funeral of another a young black man who had been shot. Where is the outrage. Sometimes I wonder if its less who dies but who kills you. I'm just sick and tired of people dying by gun violence.

so so interesting
very very true that prosecution procedures need to change for this kind of case, so we need to pursue the process for changing judicial procedures in our system which do exist and there is precedence in our system for change

for a poster to say "white people cannot be trusted" just shows how far this gulph is and I really wonder if it is ever going to be closed with that kind of 'hate thinking' going on in people's heads, obviously without compunction. There are plenty of white people enraged about this, Brian Lehrer is White and he has been creating forums about this for days, since he interrupted the BBC news about Syria. And, there are plenty of white expert witnesses on his calls talking about this with passion.

I think it is also interesting how we say "the family deserves justice"...the reason for justice is not to vindicate a family or a victim, the reason for justice is for the whole society to be vindicated. This kind of thinking is why the Hebrews killed Canaanites repeatedly and why the Torah orders genocide, and why Irish Catholics killed Irish Protestants forever, and Rwandans, and Bosnians, etc etc in a never ending cycle of vengeance. That is NOT what we do here in a modern Republic. Are we a modern Republic?

#18 MCH

The super delegate question was asked because WNYC apparently doesn't have journalistic integrity to stick to the topic at hand and do anything more than follow the horserace. (regardless of what the pledge drive advertisements say)

Wasn't Sean Bells vehicle the weapon?

I wonder whether the NYPD are planning to infiltrate peaceful demonstrations to instigate violence as during the GOP convention and the bike marches.

The Blue Wall won. The cops had time to get their stories straight and also were not given alcohol tests at the site-- despite the fact that they had been drinking.

White people skirt the issues as if this is happening to some alien creatures not human beings.

The only reason the cops were indicted in the first place was political pressure, again from Al Sharpton who gets a pulpit by news organizations, including this one. The EVIDENCE did not bear out any convictions.

Get it through your heads and just take it to a civil jury and get the money - which again, is what this is all about.

Given the lack of evidence and conflicting reports -- you would have seen the white and hopefully other colored people rise up and protest HAD those cops been convicted.

Carolyn #26
We can't know because this almost never happens to a white man.

I was at a show at the Knitting Factory on Friday. The M.C. was doing a fuck the police call & response and the crowd definitely into it, but there was a sense about the room that the verdict was the same shit, different day.

I understand that the law is predicated on specific, objective definitions - ie intent, criminal intent, etc. I also understand that any argument in a court of law must be wholly compelling. I imagine that most people understand (and accept) these ideas. What I don't get, though, is how it seems that these definitions and the accompanying arguments are so meticulously examined when it is a black man who is dead. Is the same meticulousness applied when a white man is dead?

What is the White communities responsibility to this issue or do they feel this has nothing to do with them?

Meeks is a wimpy politician who has no voice except after the fact and therefore does not deserve to represent black folk. A representative of our community can't be timid or afraid (dare I say meek). The attorney for Nicole Bell called Meek out and was correct to do so. I hope you get defeated Meeks.

it is clear that one not familiar with firearms would believe that 30 to 50 shots fired from 3 to 4 positions would take seconds, and this belief is grossly misleading for it simply takes 2 to 4 seconds just to load, specially if its believed that the weapon is jammed.

someone trained in these aspects are well aware that these are factors beyond seconds which suggests this was a control action.

the fact that one officer noted he stopped firing do to another entering his line is a clear understanding of control.

Barack Obama will say or do nothing about this issue!!! What good is a black president if he doesn't represent his community (like JFK)??!!!

Now People rise up against those "subprime mortgage" tricksters that interfered not with gangster life but wholesome life.

Marcel #9,
if the victims in the car were white, they would not have been shot! How many times have police officers mistakenly killed white males? I don't recall that EVER happening?
And for the record, Sean Bell and his friends were not doing anything wrong that night! Young white males go out and get drunk every night of the week like Sean Bell did that fateful night! They even have arguments and bar fights. Heck, police officers themselves go out and get drunk and have arguments and fights!

Marcel,

If the individuals in the car were white, this would have never happened.

Brian, why the question about the superdelegate vote?

One never wants anyone to die in this manner, but it is more that curious that only black men are victimized this way. God forbid this ever happens again, still one has to wonder what would happen if the victim were a white man.

The police generally do a good job but they should be held accountable when they a grossly negligent in thier job.

True enough, two of the cops were Black, which shows that this type of homicidal practice is generic to the NYPD, but it was Oliver (who is not Black) unloaded 31 shots, taking time to reload, in a rabid frenzy.

reality check: The courts and the DA are other branches of the government - they are on the same side as the police. Having them investigate themselves always yields the same 'not guilty', 'justifiable homicidal' result.

What I found most surprising was the reaction most white residence in the city, their was none!

Congressman Meeks repeats Norman Siegel half the time. Does he have anything original to say?

Honestly...there are those who ready for full scale WAR against the NYPD. Marching, singing and dancing, crying and complaining doesn't change anything! No JUSTICE, No PEACE!

[[BL Moderator Writes: This comment edited for violating the WNYC posting policy.]]

I wouldve been there too but my wife and kid wouldn't want me go to strip clubs and get in fights at 4am...go figure.

It really cannot be confirmed whether it was in fact broadcast that anyone was going to get their gun. BUT if the police really did hear that they were going to get a gun, why wouldn't they intercept the 3 gentlemen RIGHT THEN AND THERE? Why allow them to walk down the block, get seated in the car and start the car? Why allow them to get to this car where the supposed gun is, and then run up to the car?
For this reason I don't even think any of the cops heard the words from Sean Bell or his friends that they were going to get their gun. It just doesn't add up!

All week i have been wondering if people's reaction to the verdict is objective or subjective. I mean are they upset about the evidence in this case or the historical relationship between Law-enforcement and minority communities.

If the victims in the car were caucasian, the case would not have been sensationalized and maybe would have only appeared in the news media for a very brief period of time.

Neil: #1

I believe that this was a judge (bench) trial because the defendants asked for it. Apparently the legal thinking is that a jury trial is something you have a right to and you can waive that right. I also think that this was a strategic move by the defense which may or may not have worked in their favor.

Are you trying to incite a riot? I think it's ironic that when people react in an unlawful manner the media shakes it's head and says more diplomatic approaches should be taken; however, in this case, unlawful acts are not taking place as of yet and questions are being asked who's willing to go out and riot.

I guess people acting like animals is more newsworthy.

I received a Text message asking me to wear black to protest the verdict in the case. So today i am wearing blue to suppor the the verdict & the police in the case. This is a trageity but no one is remebering that there was a reason the police interacted with them. The fact that they may have been doing something wrong never gets inserted into the conversation. just like rody king, another tradgety but only one side of the story ever gets into the news. How many times do the police do the correct thing that Never makes the news. where are those stories?

News organizations are to blame for giving a pulpit to a discredited, race-baiting, self-serving hypocrite like Al Sharpton.

Why doesn't the press, including this show, bring up Al Sharpton's ownership stake in exsploitation businesses like PayCheck Loans?

This whole bruhaha is about money, that Al,can continue to demand when he 'speaks for' blacks.

I am generally no fan of the NYPD's heavy-handed tactics, however, if you choose to move in a dangerous environment in the wee hours at a sketchy establishment, and then advertise that you have a weapon, there should be no surprise, then, that bad things may happen, whether it's from the police or other thugs in the area. This is a consequence of embracing a culture of macho posturing and guns. None of this would have happened had the words "go get my gun" been broadcast. That said, the police protocols were shoddy at best, and it seems that having uniformed and clearly identified officers move in for arrests, rather than the undercovers, might have also prevented this event.

Could someone kindly recap to me why this was a JUDGE trial and not a JURY trial?
Thanks!