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Who exactly says that "God realization" is necessary? Oh, right, the same god that says that a requirement for evidence of his existence is only needed by those who lack faith. And why faith? Because until you believe I can pull a rabbit out of a hat, well, then I can't pull a rabbit out of a hat, and therefore the problem is not my inability to pull a rabbit out of the hat, it's your inability to have faith in my ability to pull a rabbit out of my hat. And since that's the problem, and since if this notion of my inability could get around, well, we can't have that, now can we?

Which probably explains the auto-da-fe. And the countless poor souls who didn't believe and therefore had to be killed, tortured, or mutilated. And their property taken.

As I said, "kill everybody, let God sort out the innocent."

If one doesn't have faith in a spiritual guide, how can one achieve God realization? Without a guide one must presume to have an unshakable faith in oneself to achieve it. But then if one hasn't yet achieved it what's the obstacle?

Bruce Foster:
As Thomas Aquinas said, pages of retort and instruction are required to refute the fools who make just one foolish utterance. I your case you'll need several pounds of books. But don't waste your time since you seem to know the history of the western world so well already.
Hahaha

And if it's anti-Catholic bigotry, well, then Catholicism is anti-Protestant bigotry. And turnabout is fair play. Irrational, is it? Rooted in hate, unh? Gee, where is the long tradition of an American excess of respect for our political leaders? A dynastic, non-democratic selection process of people supposedly appointed to intercede with us ignorant mortals? Institutions that dictate to us, and do not reflect our desires for ourselves?

We have exactly the respect for this mere mortal that everything about our American lives says that we should. Otherwise we'd have rulers and not elected officials.

If you don't understand the lack of respect, well, then that's likely just your limitations. I would have no more respect for the head of the Chinese Communist Party than I do for the Pope.

Would you?

Actually, as a person who practices my faith daily - by trying to love my neighbor and praying for both my friends and enemies - I don't understand the anger and lack of respect.

Oh, and I do get just about as irate when every channel is consumed by sports on a Sunday. So to all who think it: Stuff your nonsense about "anti-Catholic" bigotry. Maybe televised sports is the actual anti-religious bigotry?

Especially when it's bullroping as has been the case on WNBC. Gotta figure that the performing arts and the visual art have maybe, just maybe a greater audience in NYC than does bullroping, but I don't see WNBC devoting even an hour on a regular basis to what might be happening in the visual or performing arts.

for all you who are surprised at the anti pope posts....here is an explanation. i am not speaking for everyone....just for myself and some of my friends who are of a similar mind set.

we in the reality based community are living in the most religious country in the first world. we see what the retrogressive thinking that springs directly from NON RATIONAL religion has brought us, specifically in the last 7 years or so.

when someone like the pope who has so much (largely worshipful) attention given to him on the world stage is presented with the devastation of, for example...aids in africa....and his only solution is....abstinence....it is THIS kind of religious thinking that angers us.

It is similar to the kind of "consultation of a higher father" brought to us by GWB. so you can understand the anger and lack of respect.

On the vehemence, and on the presumption that it's really just anti-Catholic bigotry, well, let's just say that from some it might be. But then let's also consider the legacy. And operate by the motto of one great Catholic leader in the South of France: "Kill everybody and let God sort out the innocent!"

Maybe if we were all as conversant with the legacy of Buddhist and Moslem clerics we would be as vehement in our opinions. Maybe if we operated with a legacy of political history and philosophy that is directly derived from a Protestant heritage. a rejection of Catholic doctrine, and politically we had a legacy of being led by the nose like so many cattle, well, then we'd be all "he's the Vicar of Christ after all, he knows what God's thinking, and we don't."

But guess what? We don't.

And by implication to draw some sort of analogy from the Dalai Lama (and the situation in Tibet) to the Pope is false, because I would suggest that the legacy of the Church is at least as analogous to Mao and the Communist Party in China. Some good came of it, but an awful lot of people died as the result of trying to count up to three and worrying about whether human sacrifice and cannibalism was the proper metaphor for the human dilemma.

Some of us don't have that problem.

Honestly, I don't think the Dalai Lama and imams, etc. brings out the same kind of virulently anti-Buddhist and anti-Muslim comments that Catholicism does (from the same people). This is largely due to the fact that we live in a western society where Catholicism has been so much a part of our history. Most people either attack the unknown and embrace the familiar or attack the familiar and embrace the unknown.

I would expect then that the anti-Muslim or Buddhist comments would come from people who were Christian or Jewish (since those are the traditional religions of western societies) whereas the people who are generally anti-religious will probably not get as emotionally worked up about Islam or Buddhism. It's intellectually inconsistent, but no one is a completely rational creature.

And as regards the vehemence of opinion, let's just say that if you pretend to be the person that functions as the intermediary to God, well, the height of the folly is going to bring out the vehemence of opinion.

Paulo,
in that case, sorry i misunderstood your points.

Gotta wonder what it is about a guy wandering around in his bathrobe and slippers, drinking wine and munching on crackers, that merited coverage on every television channel? And not a one of them covered his role as the head of what used to be called the Inquisition? Could we have had one reference once to people being burned at the stake for want of a desire to respect the authority of the Papacy?

That was supposed to read "The SHOW had the same impassioned, etc..."not the Who. Although I'm sure The Who had their passions as well. Another show.

The who had the same impassioned and vitriolic comments concerning the Dalai Lama. I guess if BL did a segment on some high-ranking Imam or Rabbi visiting the US, the comments would be filled with vitriol, too. The point is not that people are so vehemently anti-Catholic, but vehemently anti-religion. The flavor of this week just happened to be Catholicism. Tune in next time. Religion brings out the opinionated lunatic in all of us.

Bernie, guess with all the problems in the world some feel this is a waste of air time.

ps the church is medieval. that's when it was set up. there's never been any reorg since.

Although I consider myself a sophisticated "cafeteria Catholic", to my surprise, I found myself very moved when I saw the Pope on Fifth Avenue with thousands of other Catholics.The joy of this ethnically diverse crowd was palpable. Although I would have liked him to speak out more strongly against war, capital punishment,hunger and all policies that are anti-life, I was pleased that he talked about our duty as Catholics to work for human rights and support for our immigrant families.
Although I do not agree with many of his conservative views, I ,like many other Catholics,found myself with a more postiive view of Pope Benedict.

paulo 41
I just didn't want to get into a big debate on the board with someone who clearly has an anti-catholic ax to grind, since I'm not catholic and I feel ALL religion is for the weak. I don't see the point.
I'm not sure what u mean by "snipe at a person's character", but I'm sorry if u felt I did that. I've never heard of pope worship and I see no difference between that and Jesus worship.

These messsages show why the Church cannot be a democracy. Most people don't even understand apostolic succession, let alone the church's own position on important matters. As Bishop Fulton Sheehan said, a few hundred people in the US truly hate the Catholic Church, another few million think they hate the Catholic Church.

For the third time BL does a show on the Pope, and for the third time 95% of the comments condemn both the Pope and the church, throwing around cliches like "Nazi" and "medieval". Certainly there's a lot to criticize (and celebrate) about the Church, but the comments go beyond that. This intolerance of religion in general and Catholicism in particular demonstrates that many of you who pride yourselves on being open-minded are in fact deeply prejudcied.

Why are (almost) all of these comments so very intolerant and filled with vitriol? Do you not see that you seem as narrow minded and hate-filled as those you are maligning... Not to mention condescending and elitist? Who made you right and everyone else wrong?

It's certainly easier to snipe at a person's character with foundless accusations than to make an actual argument, isn't it? Thank goodness for the anonymity of the internet.

Paulo
i'm not a xians at all, but u are mistaken. i guess we all have an agenda, don't we i'll leave it at that.

Let me also say though that I don't necessarily blame the Pope for people putting him on this pedestal.

God is supposed to be everywhere. His power, therefore, should not be in any greater concentration or radiate with any greater force from this man's body. That is a pagan concept.

Can someone please talk about the hypocrisy of his "human rights" message while the he leads/represents one of the most sexist institutions in the world?!

hjs,

I completely disagree. Some of the people calling in are clearly worshipping him. He is a man. Like anyone else. If we work through this from the Christian paradigm, he is created by God and from God like any other human being. Yet, somehow simply by being elected to this office by a small group of cardinals, he's suddenly become embued with this magical energy. Yet, if he had NOT been elected, and religious politics had led to the selection of somebody else instead, it would be THAT guy people would be claiming had this mysterious energy and force, and he would just be seen as an intellectual, pious man.

This is the reason why there are Protestant churches today. The people calling up elevate this man to a quasi-divine status. That fits the bill for idolatry and worship.

Think about all the artwork and land and other wealth

what a load of crap - what masterful PR - why do people buy into all this? What strikes me is that there are 2 kinds of Catholic - lapsed and true believers, but even the true believers aren't so cowed by the church.

no one is "worshiping" the pope. why so intolerant? some people NEED religion to get through the day

fad

no kidding....that's not the point

I see him with the funny hat and white robe and a staff like he is a shephard, and I think: FOLLY. As stated here, the spectacle is a striking and silly relic from the past, made bizarre by our modern, shallow and celebrity-infused journalism.

Facts, facts, facts...Sorry you're confused by them. The Church should be a democracy? Haha- Change it to reflect your current morays right? Good isn't good enough, a little abortion, a little gay sex and marriage never hurt anyone. Well those who want a democratic church have one, it is called the Episcopalian church.
Go for it!!!!

The question really ought to be, are 1.3 billion people necessarily right? Fact and fiction are not dependent upon the number of people who believe it. The pope, being extremely anti-relativist, would no doubt agree.

Dear Brian Lehrer,
I did not participate in any of the passion for the Pope this past weekend. However, I did see one of the opening day showings of 'Constantine's Sword' at the Quad on Friday. I'm curious what the Pope thinks about James Carroll's pursuit of truth.
Thanks,
David

PS
For your reference:
"Constantine’s Sword" is the story of James Carroll, a former Catholic priest on a journey to confront his past and uncover the roots of religiously inspired violence and war. His search also reveals a growing scandal involving religious infiltration of the U.S. military and the terrible consequences of religion’s influence on America’s foreign policy. [from the Quad website]

I support the Church because of its humanitarian efforts around the world. Although I no longer live in Manhattan, I contribute to my old parish, a 100-year old community that includes an elementary school and serves a tri-cultural group of parisioners, Haitian, hispanic and white.

My parents always told me to take from the Church the message of charity and nonmaterialism and chalk the rest up to doctrinal minutia and internal politics. I'm a pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, feminist and have no conflicts about contributing the the Church. The Pope is the symbol of 2000 years of commitment to a higher ideal, and symbols can remain potent and positive, even though some of that which they represent (the Crusades, for example) is rightly condemned.

Ah, it's always so easy to condemn and criticize, isn't it?

Yet, he represents 1.3 billion people; are they all wrong?...and I know the answer I can expect to that question.

The pope coming was a media event...and an elitist 1...

Doesn't this pope-worship border on idolatry?

See how closed the thinking is, if you can call it thinking.

Ah, it has served us well, this myth of Christ....

Would you ask if anyone was offended that they had to show ID and go through security for a religious event?

I was disappointed the pope did not condemn our war. I thought he was interested in morality in our age.

I don't undestand how a man who spent his youth protesting Turkish immigration in Germany, and who still is vocally against muslim immigration in europe and muslim membership in the EU can tell Americans that he doesn't want immigrant families split up. In Germany I have cousins that are there since the 1960's with grandchildren that are not allowed to be citizens and are split up all the time for Turkish military service, or in order to collect their German pensions, or who lose their residency rights if they get divorced in germany.

I guess Immigrants in the U.S. are okay because they are Catholic, but European immigrants are persona non-grata.

the pope ruined the Laker nuggets game.

whew....sweet relief....i was suffering severe "pope overload" there. Every TV screen on the planet had boring "all pope all the time" coverage and the journalists all sounded like a bunch of brain washed cult members....reminded me why i prefer WNYC to cable TV.

if he would just make with the miracles already and cure cancer or something.....make yourself useful or quiet down with the annoying dogmatic silliness.

With all due respect to those who found true spiritual inspiration, from my perspective the events were nothing more than a typical music festival day with a selection of opening acts and a headliner (and a bit of audience participation).

I was raised Catholic, and I am completely mystified by the excessive coverage of his visit. Yes, he is an important international figure and religious leader, but why the blanket coverage of his visit? It did feel like celebrity coverage to me. We are not even a majority Catholic country! Why should this be a national news story? Would a visit by the dalai lama or the Bishop of Cantebury garner such coverage? I highly doubt it.

How is the pope a "humanitarian", as your caller says?

Does his perpetuation of archaic HIV/AIDS prevention strategies constitute humanitarian efforts?

The Pope's visit made me feel distressed.

I cannot feel happy about something as undemocratic and arbitrary as a Pope. He's a relic from the past, and in our present he represents the untouchability (and I'm talking about the child molestation cases) of an institution that needs to be addressed.

Of course President Bush and he get along: their causes have both benefitted from the kind of impunity characteristic of the kind of rulers/deciders they are.

A "calm relief from the complicated world"? All he represents to me is just how complicated this world IS!

I was happy to see so many people enthused about his visit. However, I was dumbstruck at the amount of Pope Merchandise that I saw through the media coverage. I guess selling of religious icons has been going on for centuries, but seeing the Pope on a T-shirt was a little unnerving.

Go see Constantine's Sword at the Quad...

The whole church is a marketing firm.

The media – including NPR – gave the pope a pass to continue to discriminate.

NPR's coverage is no better that what we might expect from Newsweek.

[[This comment edited for violating the WNYC posting policy. Please remain civil. Thanks!]]

"Tom from Harlem" re Ground Zero...

Spitting is a misdemeanor or less. Killing people, in this country anyway, is what criminals do. It' is also arguably against the Koran.

Did Tancredo really call the Pope a "marketer"? Who does think he is? He should apologize and step down immediately! This is outrageous!

I bet ancient rome had traffic problems caused by zeus festivals too

Why were local news anchors used as MC's at the Yonkers Youth Rally on Saturday, isn't that a conflict of interests?

CS

It's very sad that that man won't wash his hand for other than sanitary reasons. It is just not good to put so much faith and complete trust in the hands of one person. Unfortunately many catholics really believe he is Christ on earth having the title Vicar of Christ on earth. It's the same as any successful PR. Obedience and authority capture it very well and it works in the USA because most americans are subservient to such authority and are sheepish followers because it's easier than making decisions, even easy one. How sad is that!

The incessant media coverage got *really, really* tiring after a while, and the excessively reverential attitude paid to him by local news anchors seemed strange and unfitting for a country in which church and state are supposedly separated.

As the pope prayed at ground zero yesterday, I had a thought. If he met with me and shook my hand what might I say to him.

I thought of this very sincere question.

Holy Father, if i spit a thousand times in my neighbor's face, and he over-reacts and kills my family, who is the greater sinner?

I wonder if this question would made me feel better?

There is no god...but there is detoured traffic cause of him