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Lillym,
I had suggested the same solution on April 9(always hold the Olympics in Greece), I think it is a great idea, but no one else thought so.
Like you, I was against China getting the Olympics. Now that I have had the questionable privilege of watching China's blue-suited security teams running alongside the athletes in London, Paris, and now San Francisco, I have to say I haven't changed my mind.
But it would be nice to have an Olympics without protest. To be honest, though, the games are now so polluted by commercials that it hardly seems like the Olympics anymore. Here's a solution: let's spend the summer checking in with the events we like best, and the rest of the time, we'll focus on our own (amateur) athletics, which is more in keeping with the citizen-spirit of the original games in ancient Greece. President Kennedy pushed the idea that sport should be participatory, these days it's little more than voyeurism.

Remember Moscow Olimpic Games? I was so disgusted with all the politics and boicots. Where were all these people ALL these years???!!! Why wait for Games to protest? Poor athletes...

SOLUTION: Keep Olympic Games in GREECE! ALWAYS AND FOREVER!

I think they invented this competing for where they will be held JUST so they can critisize, blackmail and boycot certain countries. I was AGAINST China getting them, but now I can see why they gave it to them.

Yang,
What is the value to China of claiming or occupying Tibet? What is China gaining from this effort? Pragmatically speaking, is it worth the animus it seems to have inspired across the world?
Bear in mind that the torch relay protest here in the US was largely non-violent. Why were the protests in London and Paris so violent? Why has China inspired so much fear? Let's face it, if you combine the inherent authoritarianism of Confucianism with the inherent authoritarianism of Communism, mix in rabid nationalism, add a massive overpopulation problem coupled with growing buying power, deny dissent amongst your own citizens, and provide Orwellian responses to any criticism.... well, you just might freak people out. Aint no racism on anyone else's part required...

Continue...

Yes, China occupied part of Tibet region. India occupied other part of Tibet region. Why nobody is talking Free Tibet with India goverment, at least it is Democratic. Moreover, if we are talking about going back and undo history, then really how many year should we go back? Thousand year? Why not give the land back to those small countries Tibet defeated 1500 year ago. That is just non-sense. How to find a peaceful way to co-exist in Tibet is the issue here. Obviously violence is not the solution.

Thank you for the discussion.

To Mike, I would think everyone try to discuss Tibet issue should know Tibet's history first. Tibet, someone called it country, was found about 500-600 AD, actually by defeated and occupied other small countries in the region. Of course Tibet had war for land with all surrounding countries, primarily then China, as well as civil war. The country was broken apart around 900 AD by civil war. Part of then Tibet was ruled under then China central goverment, Song Dynasty since around 1000 AD. Most part of then Tibet were ruled under Yuan Dynasty since 1200 AD. That was not changed until the fall of Qing Dynasty around 1904 AD, because British occupied part of the land, and a big part of then Tibet was gave to India by British. Of course the British/Tibet situation did not go well with China central goverment, Qing, then Republic of China, and current goverment PRC.

After China civil war, PRC sent army to reclaim the region in 1950. Dalai was then appointed by PRC was head of Tibet goverment. In 1958, PRC tried to abolished slavery and the Tibetan serfdom outside current Tibet area, that did not go well with Dalai. Dalai tried to solve the problem with his own army. Of course they can not match with the PLA. Dalai fled the country. Of course the whole thing in 1950s was helped/funded by CIA by tax payer money!

From the New York Times report on the torch relay in San Francisco: "Outside the stadium, pro-Chinese groups surrounded and taunted a small group of people holding a Tibetan flag, ripping the banner from their hands and chanting “Liar, liar, liar.” http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/10/us/10torch.html?hp
This is sick. And sad. And a little scary.
I assumed the violence would have been perpetrated by white anarchist groups against China, and assorted ne'er-do-wells out to pick a fight. But... it was Chinese-Americans. I could never have imagined this. I am mortified.

Messina,
I'm sorry, what part of my message did you find pompous? True, I think it is egocentric (not to mention narcissistic) to think that people protesting China's government are "attacking" you "personally" just because you are Chinese. Their protest really has nothing to do with you, or with me, or any other Chinese. It is an issue of policy.
But taking offense to my post is a good enough way to avoid addressing any of the points I brought up. BTW, the current situation in the Middle East cannot be blamed entirely on the colonial British as you suggest... I don't know if you noticed this, but the area is home to three major religions, and has thus historically enjoyed a great deal of conflict. No doubt the British only compounded an already bad situation, and should never have been there in the first place, but to believe the British are somehow the source of the problem is wildly mistaken. BTW, are you aware that countries outside of the West have been colonizers? OR is it just white people who colonize? Come on, Messina, you're smarter than that. And did you really mean to call the student leaders of Tiananmen Square "opportunistic"?

name withheld - 4/9/08 1:09PM,
Thank you for being so pompous.
It is interesting that you withhold your name.

I am looking at all the photos taken today from the demonstration in my hometown.
The pictures of the Chinese-American counterprotestors (so many!) are unnerving. Many of these people are probably 3rd and 4th generation ABC'ers (American-born-Chinese) - fairly conservative people who are now waving a communist flag. This is counterintuitive on so many levels. What concerns me is that they're reacting purely nationalistically/ethnically/racially, and not in line with our community's more traditionally conservative, anti-communist principles.
Having said that, I appreciate the work the police did in keeping things as civil as possible, what with all the shouting and apparently some out-of-control Chinese-Americans covering a Tibetan protestor in the Chinese flag. What a weird, sad day for everyone. But thank God no one got hurt.

Shelly,

In fact, the "exiled Tibetan government" is hasn't changed. It is a absolutely male-dominated theocracy. And yes, what about those little Tibetan boys who enter the lamasary? Do people think that only Catholic priests are capable of certain acts that will not be named?

Juun,
Many thanks, it's been a pleasure conversing with you and finding points of common ground.

Shelly,

Well said indeed.

And one more thing, the "anxiety" over unhappy economic prospects vis-a-vis China, how much of the harangue over impropriety is legitimate? You have a third world country allowed to enter a game in which the rules, structures, governing institutions (i.e. WTO, G-8, World Bank, IMF) were created by "former" imperial elites. That 3rd world country manages to succeed on terms and precedents it did not establish, and then everybody cries, "Foul play!"

Let's hope that "anxiety" does not morph into something else. We all know what anxiety can do a person or a country.

Name-Withheld,

In fact, even though real Chinese foods are leagues more sophisticated, artful, and healthful, how many would actually like if they were to try it?

Again, thanks for the conversation.

Name Withheld,

I appreciate the thoughtful and well written posts. I think I'm content to leave the discussion at that. I would just add one remark. I agree that the sentiment among Americans presently stems more from "anxiety" than racism. There is certainly good reason to stress over the economic prospects of the country. However, the legacy of US relationship with China, particularly (and Asia in general) is greatly rooted in a racist outlook. You made a reference to the immigration policy as one example. I believe that the anti-communist policies and propaganda was, to a large extent, a cloak over this entrenched feeling. In other words, anti-communist rhetoric and policy was a convenient and palatable disguise for "yellow peril" mania. Because of this disguise, it is not easy to question the morality and virtues of such rhetoric and policies. Consequently, the discourse in this country on China/communism progressed without balance and any meaningful contrarian examination. What it's had instead are presumptions stacked upon and reaffirming of each other that over time has become for all intents and purposes a simplistic attitude toward a country with a complexed history. As you said, people here love Chinese take-out. But you and I know that that is far different from Chinese foods.

Juun,
Also, I think what you are perceiving as "racism" is in many ways just anxiety, which has less to do with racism and more to do with current levels of US debt to China.
Many Americans who have lived frugal lives are looking at the amount of money our government has borrowed from China, and they are wondering how our own government could have sold our very future out from under us. Thus, it would be very odd to expect Americans to embrace China at this moment - bear in mind that even during WWII, when China was our great ally against Japan, we had serious limitations of Chinese immigration into the U.S. Now THAT was racist. What you are seeing today may be tinged with racism, but is much more about anxiety. It's not that all the money has moved to China. It's that with all that money, the optimism has also moved to China.
Although that doesn't explain why there were so many protestors in France and England. The US relationship is more complicated.
Seriously, I don't understand China's interest in Tibet. It seems more propitious for China to be indifferent to it, in the same way that we should have been indifferent to Iraq.

I have heard that these protests are enabled by our CIA. I don't see why, since China is our biggest trading partner.

In any case, before 1950 Tibet was far from a democracy, but rather a feudal country where power was held by a tiny handful.

Nor were the monks so wonderful. Historically they were aggressively militant warlords and they are remembered as such by the Chinese populace. As for the lamisaries (or whatever they are called) think of the sex abuse in Ireland multiplied.

While I do believe in self-determination, I am not impressed by rioting and torching the stores and dwellings of ethnic minorities.

Our own goverment sponsored news (NPR) has not been reporting what has been happening objectively, but rather has been adding fuel to the fire by giving publicity to exiles and malcontents. Don't they have anything better to do? Didn't they do enough damage by demonizing Iraq?

Juun, your 5:26 post reminds me of many discussions I had with friends from India, who were quite jealous of the achievements of Mao's cultural revolution. (Which in my family we consider an unmitigated failure, due to the human cost.) But my Indian friends saw it as a way to move forward and radically remake the infrastructure.
For me the question was: what cost progress? And if we are realistic, we acknowledge that most progress, historically, has exacted GREAT costs, no matter East or West. I find it interesting that you want to discuss the modern western European nations and their derivatives. I find modern European nations inseparable from the roots of modern European thought - and thus inseparable from ancient Greece and Rome. (I also think the fate of modern western Europe would be utterly changed without, say, Russia's gross sacrifices throughout WWII.) Would the Jesus cult have fared as well if there had not been first a story of Socrates peacefully accepting his hemlock in order to stay pure and preserve his legacy? Both the West and the East want the benefits of each other's technology, but both dismiss the soul of the other's culture. This is like sex without love, or power without grace. Along the same lines, without John Locke, what use is the human genome project? For not all that is advertised as "progress" is always so...

Like the Nationalist Socialist, China seeks to use the Olympic Games to gain legitamacy and world prestige. In 1936, threat of a boycot alone was enough to make the Nazies relent in persecuting gays and Jews. Some were thus enabled an oppertunity, through this lull, to escape to some safe haven. A boycott of the games alone will not change China's leaders. However even Hitler proved sensitive to world opinion and protest. So now, at least the president should threaten to not atttend in order to negotiate a meeting between the Chinese and the Dalai Lama.

Okay, agreed on the 5:25 p.m. post.
I want to address the progress point you made in the next post, but first a quick clarification. You say you think Greece isn't Western? I agree that MODERN Greece is, as the writer V.S. Naipaul writes, "where the East begins", but that's largely thanks to approx. 500 years of Ottoman domination. Which is obviously after the time of Socrates, which is the Athens we were discussing, right? Let's not confuse modern Greece with ancient Greece. Two totally separate entities.
Of course, ancient Greece benefited from trade in goods and technologies with its neighbors in the Middle East. But it's still Western.
Philosophically, Greece is the beginning of the West, with a huge interest in Athenian philosophy influential first in ancient Rome, where Greek was the language of the elites (Caesar's famous line "Et tu Brutus" was actually uttered in ancient Greek); then having a huge influence on Age of Englightenment thinkers. Many see the birth of the US as the culmination of the Englightenment. (I can't recall any big passion last time I was in China for Western thinkers that pre-date Bill Gates!)So it is all "in the realm of the west" which, I would hope, would not make people in China feel that they cannot also lay claim to and implement the best of those ideas.

How about boycotting the Olympic Games because it's an empty, hype-driven, anachronism?

But by way of a serious comment, as an American-born Chinese to immigrants from Taiwan, I'm conflicted about the Beijing games and the recent protests. As was mentioned on the show, I suppose I feel both lucky to be living in America and away from Chinese oppression, while simultaneously being a little uncomfortable with all the negative reaction the games have garnered.

At the same time, I also think it seems like it's all for show. After the cameras turn away, after the attention dies down, everything happening in China will continue without anyone to stop it.

But going back to what I first said, I also agree with Frank Deford from today's Morning Edition (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89475422) about the ridiculousness of the torch ceremony and the games itself.

-cont'd

Second, communism as it has existed is/has been a step in the direction of democracy. If you look at political and economic realities of modern China vs. feudal China, can you make the point that there hasn't been dramatic progress? What I find to be problematic about your position, and the position of trigger happy critics, is that it takes an all or nothing and black or white perspective. It assumes that the Chinese government is an absolute evil that can do no good. I say, look at the history and look the circumstance. How do you lead 1.3 billion people out of poverty, entrenched feudal traditions, divisive parochial sensibilities about class and hierachy, and into modernity, when all that the world's most powerful and wealthiest countries want is to see that government fail as miserably as possible.

When I asked about the history of western nations, I wasn't thinking as far back as Greece, which I don't even consider western; I was thinking of the modern western European nations and it's derivatives. It was no pretty picture. Their development was achieved through repression, theft, genocide, and exploitation of all varieties including the destruction of the environment. Democracy, if that's what we could call it, came to these countries at the tail end of this arc of development.

Name-withheld,

I don't know if you'll read this. The traffic has died down.

On the question of bringing up racism, which I did not raise but I would respond to your comment. Certainly no empire is free of this guilt. In fact few people, empire or not, are; it's a practice which all humanity has learned to do quite well. However, this fact does not invalidate the argument that it, racism, is important and central to global balance of power in general and the relationship between western European nations and China in particular. What's important is not that racism has always existed, rather that it continues to exist, and it is relevent, and should always be examined.

-cont'd

Merse,
When you write:
"The most effect approach may be to help China understand that it is "losing face" in the world for its actions in Tibet, just as America has lost face for its actions in Iraq."

Well, I think that is just what the protestors are trying to do. Look, the Chinese people have sacrificed so much for their country. I understand what the Olympics means to them. But in an open society, you can't have the glory without the criticism. They are strong enough to accept the criticism, we have to trust them to be wise enough to make use of it.

Juun,
I quite agree with you on the slavery issue, but recall that Athenian slaves could win their freedom, and given that it was the 5th century BC, Athenian democracy was QUITE RADICAL. As for women, there were 2 great powers in Ancient Greece: 1) Athens, where women had few rights, but where women still held powerful grip on the imagination as evidenced by Greek drama, and 2)Sparta, where the seeds of democracy, ironically, were first started. In Sparta, women had an almost unreal amount of power, given the era.
There is one scholar of the ancient world who makes the point that in some ways the democracy of Athens was actually much more advanced than that of the current United States, and that the Athenians WORKED harder on their democracy than we do. Worth thinking about.
In the end, any disproportionate amount of power corrupts. This is as true of the US as it is of China and any other place. People are angry with the US for real reasons. So if people are angry with China, is it for unreal reasons?

Dear Name-Withheld,

I appreciate your earnest consideration of the democracy question. I would insert the caveat the the Greek city-states also practiced slavery. In addition, women had limited rights and certainly no right to vote.

I have one other comment, but I'm out of time. Maybe later.

I was in China last October, which threw into relief the dramatic changes since my prior visit 20 years before. The threatening, smothering Red Army presence was gone, and Chinese people had acquired a newfound pride in themselves and their country for its economic emergence.

The Chinese generally like Americans, for their history, character and entrepreneurial spirit. This affection for Americans will be undermined by the small-minded protesters who mug for the cameras like idiots, hoping their images are magnified around the world. Their naive and narrow view says this makes sense. Reality finds otherwise.

In truth, our influence on China and its policies is greatest as a friendly trading partner.

So for the US to join the isolated hooliganism against the Olympic Torch as a "protest" against repression in Tibet is counter-productive -- at best. More likely we will alienate the Chinese by causing them to "lose face", present ourselves as hypocrites, and reduce the dialogue that is the basis for change.

As Americans, let's not throw rocks, but work constructively toward a better world. The most effect approach may be to help China understand that it is "losing face" in the world for its actions in Tibet, just as America has lost face for its actions in Iraq. Better to not follow our lead on this one...

David states: "there are many many chinese supporters when the torch passed in paris, but no tv stations will interview them. i turned on the tv and saw only protesters. if you have such biased media, how can you expect the people to react towards chinese ?"

David: This is the nature of 'news': people cheering when expected is NOT news. People protesting when they'd normally be cheering IS news. To be fair to the media, when the market allows for more than 15 seconds of coverage, reactions to the protests are the next logical topic and I've heard many Chinese-Americans expressing support for the Olympics and disdain for the protesters.

Mike, that's an interesting point that:
"backward Tibet has benefited from Chinese colonialism in the same way that the backward Chinese benefited from Western colonialism."
In the early 20th century, the most "modern" city in China was Shanghai. It had electricity, streetcars, and modern engineering. Guess who implemented that? Not the Chinese, not the Brits, nor the French or any of the other expats. It was the Sephardic Jews, who'd reached Shanghai before the Brits, Sephardic Jews like Hardoon, Sassoon, Kadoorie. It was in Shanghai that Mao was educated, and first gained power. Ironic, ironic... Think of Shanghai as the Vienna of its time, Vienna "gave" the world Hitler, and Shanghai "gave" Mao.

David states: "i hate to educate other people with their language and history but i couldn't help it with you tibet was a backward semi slavery society , much like the southern states in America in lincoln's time. mao broke away that system, freed most the people at the lowest social class. dalai lama lost all his privileges and fleed to the west which is very much to the interest of America to give China a pain in the ass later on. we made tibet a better place, just like america is a better place when the black people were set free"

David: You need some education yourself. The Antebellum South was not a backward place. The wealth accummulated by rich slave owners afforded them quite high levels of education. The analogy between Tibet and the Native Ameicans was more spot on. And for your own edification: backward Tibet has benefited from Chinese colonialism in the same way that the backward Chinese benefited from Western colonialism.

Dear Juun,
In answer to your question, yes, I often consider "the modern history of western nations, that democracy develops over time and not over night, that a sustainable democracy necessitates a certain level wealth and stability."
Interesting that China had great wealth for so long, but never democracy, even a thousand years after some hardscrabble Greeks had first come up with the idea, and worked so hard to develop it, with many failures and setbacks and yet.... Perhaps China's problem goes back to the difficulty of controlling such a large feudal territory.
When you look at the ancient Greeks, you see a population and a culture that was primed for democracy. In its small size, it enjoyed real agility and flexibility. Perhaps the burden of controlling such a large and diverse and over-populated group in China has prevented any possibility of democracy?

Messina,
How is it that the Western powers were in a position to "brutally carve up" China after the opium wars? Could it be that China's obscne corruption and lack of human and women's rights had rotted it from within?
Please do not say that "most" Chinese in the diaspora feel proud. I am proud of and greatly admire the Chinese people for surviving their lousy government, but I am not proud of Chinese govt propaganda any more than I am proud of US govt propaganda.
I'm sorry you feel that those protesting the torch are "personally attacking" you. That is very sad, and also a little egocentric. If China wants the games, it also has to bear the criticism. This is the grown-up world, Messina. Not a fantasy of what the Chinese govt would like it to be.

"Posted by: BORED April 09, 2008 - 12:36PM
@ Juun

"Juun i am not mad at you because we all have to work for a living but no one is buying your "what about you" crap so give it a rest"

OK, you're "not mad at me" but you'll happily hurl an expletive. You're a believer in free speech, so therefore you think I should give my "crap...a rest".

Wow, a true idealist and peace loving person you are! You deserve no more of time.

To the guy "Name-withheld"

Have you ever considered the modern history of western nations? Have you ever considered that democracy develops over time and not over night? Are you brave enough to entertain the possibility that a sustainable democracy necessitates a certain level wealth and stability? Have you wondered why most of the Olympic Games are granted to western and economically developed countries? Have you asked the question "Why is it so hard for the non-Anglo-Franco-Germanic countries of the world to rise out of post-colonial destitution? Does it mean nothing to you that the Chinese people/government has exceptionally placed itself in the position to do so?

AS a Chinese-American, I am proud of my 2 heritages; however I am also cognizant of the
achievements and contradictions of my 2 heritages.
NO COUNTRY IS PERFECT. In the almost 5000 yrs.
of Chinese Hx,there have been many problems and
injustices. But most Chinese,including the mil-
lions in the Chinese Diaspora, FEEL VERY PROUD
that China has the Games on 8/8/08. Furthermore
when I see demostrators attacking the Olympic
Torch, I feel it is a personal affront on me.
I am an Obama supporter, but I disagree with him because America's original sin is not
Slavery, but the Genocide of the Native Ameri-cans.
As for the (former?) colonial powers, not only
did they brutally carve up China after the Opium Wars, but they, esp.the Brits, subjugated
and manipulated the countries of the Middle
East,(Palestine,Iraq,Iran,Lebanon) leading to the continual crisis in that area. It was the
French who thwarted the UN's attempt to inter-
vene in the Rwandian.
Some of the students at Tian An Men were very
opportunistic; Chai Ling, escaped to the US and
had her eyes surgically enlarged. Check out old
PBS Frontline documentary on Tian An Men.

in the western world you have cnn and bbc and a host of others. with the english culture spreading around the world, we all hear what you say from all corners of the world. but who will listen to us ? how many can and are willing ?

If I had a nickel for every time a fellow Chinese-American brought up Western colonialism and racism, without acknowledging once that China was one of the biggest colonizers in Asia, and as for racism... whew!

Can we just acknowledge that people who gain too much power become inured to it, and desensitized to the plight of people who do not have power?
Romans, Chinese, British, Americans... Ain't no difference...

considerint that this is a wnyc forum, which is a station i like heartily, i might just stay a bit longer

about the situation in france, you'd feel much different if you stand in my shoes as chinese. the french has coined up an expression for years that's called: peril jaune or yellow peril. as i said before ignorance creates fear. i can understand why they consider yellow asians, or just chinese as a threat before, but now their media simply creates this fear and hatred.

there are many many chinese supporters when the torch passed in paris, but no tv stations will interview them. i turned on the tv and saw only protesters.

if you have such biased media, how can you expect the people to react towards chinese ?

@ Juun is this what they call public service in China. Do you get paid to patrol message boards to make sure people are on message. Is this what china wants to promote. No protest, no criticism, para military guards beating up protesters. Juun i am not mad at you because we all have to work for a living but no one is buying your "what about you" crap so give it a rest

Regina,
I just re-read your post:
"The average Chinese person is quite content with the government and current economic development, but we like to think of them as tortured, long suffering, and deprived."
Are you sure that the average chinese person is quite contect with the gov't and current econ. development?
From what I read, there are a lot of people who are being poisoned by industrial pollution. And Three Gorges Dam hasn't exactly been a human rights celebration.
Maybe your family left earlier than mine did, but I'm not so naive as to believe that "the average chinese person" is quite content with their government. Farmers in China have risked their lives protesting chokehold taxes. There are still reports of girls poisoning themselves in the rural areas because the life is still so brutal for them.

@Juun why does it matter to you or the Chinese government if people boycott or protest the Olympics? All that means is more medals for the Chinese. America has tons of bad episodes in its history and currently but atleast people get to speak out on them. Do you see how fast you brought up the Native Americans. Would i be able to google anything about chinas human rights record in shangh? NO!

"Posted by: Michael April 09, 2008 - 11:56AM
SI, NY

The Chinese take-over of Tibet was the worst human rights violation EVER!"

Michael - You have showed us how astute you truly are about history.

This is quite astounding.

Dear Regina,
As one Chinese-American to another, let me suggest that it is not just the Americans who have a strong emotional response to China's government. Look at the protests in France, for Pete's sake. It's time for us to acknowledge that there's a reason so many people hate and fear the Chinese government (even though they still love Chinese take-out). It's not about racism. It's about the growing power of China, a distinctly non-democratic state that doesn't give a rat's behind when it slaughters 70 million of its own people.
Dear David,
There's no comparison of the China-Tibet situation to the U.S. Civil War. In that war, the two sides were fairly equally matched. Who is the match for China militarily?

BORED -

You're name says it all. The Chinese people have not the privilege to party as hard as you have.

[This comment edited. Please be civil.]

Yes! It's another beautiful day in the empire! Let its very virtuous citizens go out and tell another people how to run its household; they surely have theirs in order.

Any person who speak out against the controversy of China/Tibet, should devote at least 10 times the effort in speaking out about the disaster of US/Native-America. Wake up fair weather liberals!!!

Bl Show Note:

Thus far, the discussion has been quite on-topic, civil, and fruitful. Consider this your gentle reminder to keep it so! Thanks,

-BL Show-

China's brutal occupation of Tibet makes Gitmo look like Disneyland.

hehe i actually do hope that the chinese government hires me to be their spokesman. the current one is total moron. we have tons of good arguments to defend ourselves yet that guy only knows how to use machine language. sign...

David must be a chinese government employee. What he is writing is nonsense. Mao's army killed a million tibetans, destroyed thousands of monasteries. Tibet was an independent country, with it's own language and culture. Sure it was not Nirvana, but with the introduction of buddhism, it was for the most part a peaceful society. If the Tibetans are so happy with the Chinese occupation, why are they rioting, and why does it necessitate the constant military oppression and occupation by the chinese military and police.

the so-called "tibet invasion " is actually the Chinese verions of civil war

of course a bunch of people got killed, how many people were killed in your own civil war ??

Karen

i hate to educate other people with their language and history

but i couldn't help it with you

tibet was a backward semi slavery society , much like the southern states in America in lincoln's time. mao broke away that system, freed most the people at the lowest social class. dalai lama lost all his privileges and fleed to the west which is very much to the interest of America to give China a pain in the ass later on.

we made tibet a better place, just like america is a better place when the black people were set free

Juun you get the chinese to allow protesters at the olympics and then you can have the olympics but thats not what you or the chinese government wants. Instead you want everyone to keep quiet while you guy's get to party.

I am so angry to see that little handicapped girl was attacked by that Tibatan in Paris. That was disgusting. I was sympothetic to Tibetans before, but not any more.

The Chinese take-over of Tibet was the worst human rights violation EVER! SOMETHING should have been done about it when it started, and something should be done NOW. I favor non-violent, non cooperation.

I would like to ask those who so quickly demand a boycott to consider the Chinese people - f not all 130 billion, then perhaps at least 750 million of them.

It is true that conditions there are imperfect, but obviously is it so in any country? The Chinese people have never had a the privilege of hosting the Olympic Games. The games is more than just a sporting event; it is an acknowledgment by the world that they have succeeded in transitioning from colonial subjugation, which the western nations has forgotten so quickly, to prosperous modern country with much to hope for. The Chinese people are so proud that the world will coming to their country.

There is more than one way to keep a country and a people in isolation. There is more than one way to exhibit the arrogance of imperial privilege. Protest should be allowed, but those who do so should also consider the wider scope of the situation. The Chinese have been victims of more than one oppressor, but at least their present government has given them much to hope for.

David,

At least we have the open right to protest our country's actions in Iraq, to go anywhere on the web including Al Jazeera to read about what our government is doing and to openly demonstrate.

Yes, taking the land from the Indians was an equivalent action, and was equally reprehensible. I had ancestors on both sides. But two wrongs don't make a right and I would hate to see the Tibetans suffer the fate of the Native Americans. The Tibetans had their own trail of tears on March 10, 49 years ago.

And no, tourists are not free to see Tibet. Nor are journalists.

it's people like "outhagainstfacisim" whose poor understanding about china remains laughablely in the Mao times that stirs up hatred all around and world, i just can't believe the number of people that fell to their irrational arguments

The occupation of Tibet was not peaceful: it was a bloody occupation that created the killing of more than 1 million tibetans. It's disturbing to hear the rewriting of Tibetan history as facts on your show. Chinese people, here and in China are fed a constant dose of Chinese propaganda, that now includes open racism against Tibetans. A free Tibet means a free China. Call a cat a cat: China's is a military dictatorship, a communist/fascist regime. It's painful to hear all this polite debate about a country that routinely arrest, imprison, torture and kill its own citizens.

Protesting may or may not be hypocritical for Westerners, but if China wants to become a superpower, they have to learn how to deal with it. Especially now, US Officials go abroad and are met with protests, rightly or wrongly. Civil disobedience (though not violence) should be protected, and China needs to get used to it.

I don't have issues with mixing politics and the Olympics, and I do think that we have the right to criticize China's policies (yes, even while buying Chinese products at Walmart). But, as a Chinese American, I'm constantly amazed by the strong, emotional response Americans exhibit toward the China situation. It's paternalistic and smacks of colonialism and racism. The average Chinese person is quite content with the government and current economic development, but we like to think of them as tortured, long suffering, and deprived. I am disgusted by of the Chinese government's policies and hope for a change in the future, but why do American's feel like they own China?

Protest, yes. But protest peacefully. There is no need to stoop to even minor violence by trying to wrench the torch out of the hands of one of the bearers.

Like it or not, the Olympics focuses attention on the host country and its culture and policies. In some ways this is desireable. Much attention is now being directed to the Tibet and Darfur situations. but, we did not boycott the Berlin Olympics and we should not boycott these games. But protest, by all means.

to bored

i am a wnyc listener. i used to be an american-dream dreamer. i used to admirer the western values. all that is being blown away at this hostile world.

I find it hillarous that China wants to compare their record against the U.S. yes gitmo is a mistake, we have made a few, but China you do not deserve to be even in the same sentance with the U.S. why don't you talk about Mao ORDERING MILLIONS to be starved so China could get Nuclear weapons? Take your communist lies to the garbage dump where it belongs. Go to H#@ll China. Bomb China now!!!!

The Chinese have mixed feelings towards Tibet and feel frustrated by the fact that Tibetians dont want to identify with Han nationalism. Chinese have a romantic yet paternalistic attitude towards Tibet, And liek a scorned suitor feel anger when the Tibetians reject their advances. Looking at the Tibetian community in NYC, you can see that Tibetians identify more with India and the Himilayian countries than with the large Chinese community here. Somewhere behind all the insane anger at the Tibetians is this point.

get out of tibet china. It is a crime for you to set one foot one one inch of tibet. Bomb China

Does the correlation hold - America/Indians, Chinese/Tibetans, Australia/Aborigines? I think so. We can't go back and change the past, but we can prevent similar atrocities from taking place in the present/future. I think we should.

And before there are more calls of the hypocrisy of the Americans protesting the Chinese gov't, it might be useful to consider that these same Americans who protest Chinese gov't oppression are the same Americans that protest American gov't oppression and violence. And let us also remember, the current American administration is illegitimate.

However, I think we can credit George Bush and his obstinate, unilateral insistence on belligerent confrontation and hollow rhetoric to democracy as emboldening these protesters to take whatever action they deem necessary to bring about the democracy they so desperately feel the Tibetans deserve. Which they do.

david who are you really.

"Years ago, in the days of the Greeks, wars were postponed to make room for the Olympic games. In modern times, the Games have been postponed twice - for wars." - Bob Matthias

The Moscow boycott achieved nothing but a retaliatory boycott of the LA Games, and in both those cases deprived athletes of long-awaited opportunity.

Perhaps the president should not attend the games at all, but the games should have the participation of ALL. (That includes Tibetan athletes, if any.)

Each of us is doing business with China every day - the computer monitor in front of me was made there. Every corporation with manufacturing in China or sales to the China market is more culpable than the Olympic games - Olympics: 12 days every four years. Trade with China: 365 days every year.

Owen states: "I totally disagree with Russell, the caller who is indignant at what he sees as the hypocrisy of Americans protesting Chinese brutality."

Owen: Russell stated that the US would be evenmore brutal if it were in the same situation. Think back to the urban riots in the late 1960s: Did the police in the US ever kill over 100 protesters in a week? No. I was there and people were never afraid to protest in the US.

a large chinese population can at least read english while how many americans can read chinese ?

mutual understanding is the key to a peaceful world. if you don't understand us, then you have fears. olympic game is one great opportunity for the rest of the world to understand us. we have reaching out our arms to the world, we took the inititives. yet look at what we get from the so-called civilised western people ??

Should the olympics go on in beijing ? Of course!

Shoul;d we put pressure on China to talk to the Dalai Lama and stop the childish name calling and political tantrums? YES!

Should we get the USA on a foreign policy course that atones for the terror we have raged on the Iraqi people ?
Of course!
We will have an election in this country in November.
Are the Chinese that so blindly defend their Han dominated state able to understand that they are really admitting that unlike India and Western Europe and many other countries, they are not mature or politically intelligent enough to afford vigorous political debate and democracy?

da: they have been commenting, inside and outside of China.

... Oh, you and the media has chosen to neglect that. When you relegate 1.3 billion people to the sideline in this discussion, out of them tens of thousands is a potential pool to choose from to take the main stage in this discussion. When there is no opposing opinions, the free speech is meaningless.

If each nation did NOT support their own teams, if national funds were not used for those purposes, then maybe one can argue that the olympics are not political.

And let's not forget, "Chinese" is a melting pot of 57 ethnic minorities, in addition to the Han Chinese. The government has taken over other countries like Mongolia, Xinjiang, and Tibet. Those countries were CONQUERED with aggression. Tibetans are being outbred by the Han Chinese.

Lastly if this was not political, why then is Taiwan funding their own athletes & olympic endeavors, but not allowed to call themselves "Chinese" or "Taiwanese"

#98

This is simple: No the runners aren't torturing the Tibetans...which is why the protestors went after the torch....the symbol of the genocide olympics!

The last thing the Tibetan movement needs is a boycott of the Beijing Olympics. as it is their best opportunity for political and media coverage. Instead, I will advise the Tibetan Movement to start calling for a boycott of the International Sponsors of the Olympics, that includes Coca Cola, McDonald's, and GE.

Is boycotting the Olympic going to work?

If you want to boycott, quit buying "made in china" stuff. If millions of American consumers do this, that'd send quite a message to them.

Yang states: "if you want to make the case for Tibet, you do really need go back thousands year ago! China occupied the area thousands year ago. American found the country by killing almost all American indians and occupied the land hundreds year ago. We are pround of American. This logic seems not working."

Yang: First, China has not occupied Tibet for thousands of years. 1,000 years ago, Tibet occupied part of China! The Mongols then conquered both of them. Tibet was part of China for less than 200 years before the Britsh occupied Tibet, no matter whatthe Chinese at the time thought. Second, your comparison to the US imperialism in what is now the US is quite appropriate. I was talking to a Chinese law student the other night. He wished the Chinese government would simply kill all the Tibetans to make room for the Han. There was a saying in th US about 125 years ago: "The only good Indian is a dead Indian." Just like the US acquisition of the west, China annexing Tibet and the northwest territories is IMPERIALISM. The same law student expresses similar views when it comes to Taiwan and Mongolia, all part of what he views as "China".

#91

EXACTLY!

I protested the Iraq invasion from day 1 when there was a handful of us near the UN and seemingly noone cared how incredibly wrong the invasion was! NOONE is going to tell me that I don't have the "moral authority" to criticize because of what my government does. Since when did criticizing the Chinese government mean that you must therefore support everything your own government does?????? What the f...???

Don't confuse the people with the governmet. We, as american citizens shouldn't be silenced due to the crimes of our government. You can actually be against both! Geez...

I think Bush simply shouldn't go. Unless he plans to use his visit to advance a US Foreign Policy of objection to Chinese oppression and lack of freedom, I don't want him using our plane and incurring all the security and other costs for a joy ride. The money could be used for treating our vets instead. Maybe the Chinese would cover the costs with all their prosperity.

US has no right to protest against human rights issues. Why didn't we protest when China was chosen as the next Olympic Games?? US can boycott the opening ceremony if that makes US feel better, but I heard US president never attends the opening ceremony anyways.

The runners with the torch aren't the people torturing Tibetans!

Politics and Sports should not mix. As such, no US political figures (executive or legislative) should attend.

Why not protest the Opening Ceremonies from with in them. If every country that supported Tibet carried the flag of Tibet instead of their own home countries it would be a major act of protest and support while still keeping with the spirit of the games.

We should absolutely boycott it. I think it's desensitization that has us calling it a "political issue." It's a HUMAN RIGHTS issue. That transcends political, and athletic, boundaries.

To Yiorgos in Astoria,
I agree that it's very sad that the Olympics have become politicized, but let's be honest.
The current Olympics are so different from the ancient Athenians' more religiously based Olympics.
The real Olympics weren't hijacked entirely by business interests.
The best Olympics was 2004 in Athens. But no one went because of "terrorism". Crazy.
The Olympics should only be held in Greece. Ever. Because at least their government is mostly sane.

I totally disagree with Russell, the caller who is indignant at what he sees as the hypocrisy of Americans protesting Chinese brutality. There has never been an innocent nation, but that hasn't prevented international pressure from putting an end to, say, the Atlantic slave trade, the Franco dictatorship in Spain, South African apartheid, European imperialism, etc. If only the totally innocent can criticize tyranny, then no one can criticize tyranny. Where does that leave us?

it's so damn ironic to see americans protest while you just finished invading irak !
your government has done tons of dirty deals behind the curtain all around the world to maximize your own interests
what right do you have to tell others what to do ?

To the caller challenging the "moral authority" of any United States citizen to speak out against China's crackdown on Tibet: the misdeeds of our own amoral leadership should not silence the conscience of the people.

I agree that the USA has no moral authority to criticize China.. George Orwell's Animal Farm is an exact description of the revolution in China and the last line of the book describes the USA and China perfectly

I'd love to see a reporter wander through the protesters asking to see the labels on their clothes. How many of them are wearing clothes that were made in China? Or the materials they've made their banners out of? We're all supporting the Chinese government when we go to the store.

Any resolution of the Tibet issue will come via Tibetans and Chinese. Protesting and boycotting are not good ways to engage the Chinese, who will see these actions as a major loss of face and will only retreat further into knee-jerk nationalism and iron-grip rule.

The Chinese government is obsessed with maintaining order and fears chaos above all. This is because of events such as the Cultural Revolution. To them, protests are chaos and chaos spells disaster for the country, which is why they are so quick to crack down so hard on any dissent.

But it does make many Chinese angry that westerners, who divided China up during the Opium Wars and caused much suffering among the people, are now lecturing China about human rights.

I don't hold these views myself but to them, this is just another attempt by "imperialists" to weaken China.

What I find telling and very interesting is like the government he shrilly supports, David degenerates very quickly into the gutter with name calling and cursing anyone that speaks against the CCP's propaganda machine. This blind "Han nationalisim" is the main problem with modern China. Han Chinese from the top to the bottom become insane whenever anyone questions the government. What they don't seem to understand is that it makes them look bad.

I think a very good way would be to boycott the opening ceremonies, to dramatically show this disapproval without damaging the actual games. I think its very important that western countries show their disapproval of the way the Chinese government has handled protests in Tibet. That will show that human rights trumps corporate power in the west. If this happens, there's still some hope for us in the West- i.e., that we still have some principles. Unfortunately, China has much economic clout these days, and therefore have more power to manipulate our reaction. I think it's sad that economics may determine our reaction to a human rights issue.

The United States, including our leaders, should boycott the 2008 Olympics.

Lets be clear. We are not talking about the people of China, we are talking about the CCP, the Chinese Communist Party. As long as the CCP controls China, we should refrain, both socially and economically, from supporting any legitimization of the CCP.

For all Americans who want to reason their way out of this (i.e. the Olympics are a sports event only, etc ...), stop your totalitarian appeasement and be true to our Constitution.

In order to be a part of the world, a country must protect a citizen's life, liberty and property. China does none of the above.

Charles
Bklyn

Charles

So many amazing comments. Wow!!! What a discussion.

I think a boycott of the Opening Ceremonies would be a good stance for the U.S. to take to condemn the actions of the Chinese against the Tibetans but right now I don't think we have much moral standing to do so. We suck right now.

#65

I count genocide as egregious...I'm funny like that!

Hua Chen they are free to comment too!

...Oh, sorry, they are not (that being exactly the issue...)

That was too easy

To China's government, thousands of international protestors = "a few Tibetan separatists"
and in the U.S. a millitary escalation - a "surge"
Same old story, same old bull.
But face it, as much as people hate the US now, the government of China, and China's growing appetite for power and resources, really frightens people. Look at how China's growing appetite for meat is impacting world grain supplies. We need to think about this carefully, it is a sticky situation.

We shouldn't boycott the Games, but we must boycott the opening ceremonies. While I normally don't believe the Olympics should be politicized, a boycott is the only way we can send an effective message to the Chinese government that their atrocious human rights record in Tibet is unacceptable.

tibet is open for visiting all year around to the world, why the hell don't the western protesters go there and make films and talk to the local people before ? it's clearly seen here about their intentions.

i don't have solutions to our "human rights problem" but China has been a peace loving country in history for a long time. it's always us that defend ourselves from attacks. that's the reason we built the great-wall! we are a united country , not like those little european countries that continuously fought with each other for centries. so to say china is a threat is total crap !!

black power protests of the 60's-70's

My 17 year old son flew out to San Francisco, at his own expense, to demonstrate against bringing the torch through Tibet where the anticipated crackdown to "secure the parade route" will cause more killings and jailings of Tibetans.

The Olympics are one season, but the Free Tibet movement will certainly carry on, especially since next year is the 50th anniversary of the March 10th uprising.

http://action.savedarfur.org/campaign/skip_olympics/ix38s7u4f7n63bij?

Until any western media has put a person who share the view of the majority of Chinese, inside or outside of China, at the main stage of discussion instead of just comment lines, you are inherently and collectively biased!

Leave the political issue out off the sporting event.

To megan, if you want to make the case for Tibet, you do really need go back thousands year ago! China occupied the area thousands year ago.

American found the country by killing almost all American indians and occupied the land hundreds year ago. We are pround of American. This logic seems not working.

The athletes should be allowed to compete, but Bush should not attend the opening ceremonies and the U.S. government should issue a statement condemning China's human rights violations.

Pretty hypocritical, considering Guantanamo, the war in Iraq, and our pro-torture and rendition policies, not to mention our failure to condemn Israel's 2006 invasion of Lebanon (which we paid for with our tax dollars and foreign aid) or treatment of Palestinians in the occupied territories, but two (or three, or four) wrongs don't make a right, so we should make the statement.

63--just ask Richard Simmons. (Sorry, I couldn't resist. :-))

There should be here an historian of the original Greek Olympics, maybe we would find out that they were, in fact, political too where individual city-states or groups competed in the Olympics to show strength over other city-states/groups? I don't know that's a guess but it's worth checking into. Shall i check Wikipedia? [cruel LOL]

Yes, we should boycott the Olympics. Tibet's plight has seemed largely invisible by the governments and peoples of the world, and it's not just a political issue, it's a human rights issue.
There is visibility now, and it should be used to challenge China to recognize the Dalai Lama, and recognize the rights of Tibetans.

To contribute to the history of protest towards the games. In 1968, the Mexican government killed hundreds of students during a march because they were afraid of their image and control during the games....

I'm thrilled that the Tibetans and others are using this golden opportunity to shame China. I respect the idea of the Olympics as a time for the world to come together, across national boundaries--and so I think we should participate.

However, the reality is that the Olympics are ALWAYS political. Beijing is hosting the games precisely for political reasons. So it's completely legit to use this opportunity to counter Beijing's official propaganda. Likewise, boycotting the opening ceremony is appropriate, because it's only purpose is to glorify the host country.

The pageantry of the opening ceremonies is the single element of the Olympics that does the greatest honor to the host country. Boycotting this ceremony sends a sufficient message apropos China's human rights record and crackdown in Tibet. Boycotting the games goes too far; it's a snub to all participant countries.

NB: Taking a strong position, as the United States well should, regarding China's human rights record presents a nice opportunity for us to look in the mirror and examine our own, no?

Brian,
based on the performance of your guest in this segment you will be rated a C. please use yours skills to bring it up to an A. If you need a role model, please listen to Leonard to acquire the skills that might improve your performance!

Keep the politics out of the Olympics, unless the offense is completely egregious.

The athletes who have worked their asses off for four years to peak for this event deserve a chance to compete.

I think we should boycott the opening, including out puppet president, but have our athletes participate in the olympics.

how do u get a flame on a plane?

According to The Daily Show the torch tradition was started by Adolf Hiter - is this true??

No Boycott.
The Ancient Greeks stopped wars during the Olympics. We should stop the Iraq war too.. oh i forgot its not a war its an occupation.

The protesters, including Richard Gere, are right about Chinese human rights abuse, Tibet, Darfur, etc.

Protesting the Olympic torch relay is dead wrong. It damages what is left of Olympic goodwill. It insults the athletes around the world. It tends to blame the Chinese people for their government's action.

Most important, it doesn't work. Attempting to humiliate the Chinese officials will not improve the political situation. These protests seem like the work of shrill amateurs with no awareness of Chinese history and no respect for the potential for good in international sports.
Mitch

Chris O slow down #53 makes no sense.

Being a Tibetan I personally don't think Olympic should be boycotted but, let me make one thing clear to the world. Tibet and it's leader has been non-violent and has urged world's help just because China don't seem to be wanting to talk and engage. We are urging China to come to the table and talk so that we all can live in peace and harmony. If you don't think that Olympic has nothing to do with politics you are wrong. Olympic is held in belief with harmony and friendship but, China is lacking that very moral value. There is no harmony and peace in Tibet. I personally urge all the protestors to be non-violent and make sure that we get the world support. We must not hurt the torch bearer in any way.

For me I would like to confide you the world that I am speaking for the Tibetans in Tibet since their voice can't be heard. The Tibetans in Tibet are urging the world to help make Tibet a zone of peace.

Thank you.

Sonam Topgyal.

The President should boycott the Opening Ceremonies, because that would send a clear message to the Chinese Government that the United States does not support China's brutal and illegal occupation of Tibet. The idea of the boycott is not to make the athletes suffer, but rather to let China know that we will not sit idly by while they fire live ammunition at peaceful Tibetan protesters and give them our seal of approval by attending their Opening Ceremonies. Furthermore, Bush should call on the International Olympic Committee to pressure China not to bring the Torch onto Tibetan soil. Right now, the Chinese government is engaged in a brutal and violent crackdown inside Tibet, and they have not allowed any foreign journalists or independent monitors to enter the region. Bush should use his position to call on the Chinese Government to unconditionally release all of those who have been arrested for simply demanding their freedom, and to allow UN human rights monitors into Tibet.

Doug,
I totally agree, the IOC must be run by morons to have given this to China.
BTW, was anyone freaked out by the Orwellian descriptions by the Chinese government used to describe the protests in Paris? Those hundreds of protestors were reduced to "a few Tibetan separatists". it was as absurd as our calling "torture" as "waterboarding", or our calling "escalation" as "surge".
As for people cry-babying that this is unfair to the athletes, they should take their complaint to the IOC. And what are they going to say when China starts asserting its tyrannical power in places other than China and other than Tibet? Will they be crying over the athletes' "dreams", then?
I love and am indebted (literally!) to the Chinese people. But I fear their government.

Yes, #40 great point! Why not host the next ones in Sudan or UAE?

#43

Thanks for pointing that out. I was just about to do the same.

da #47,
you should go to china so you don't have to deal with pesky free citizens like myself. you obviously can't handle criticism of the governement so you should move to the type of society where you won't have it

Because I often post, I want to clearly distinguish between me, David--capital D from NYC (live in Bx, work in Manhattan), and "david"--lower-case d stating his Chinese ethnicity and listing france as his location.

I do not share david's sentiments. Thank you.

(re post #38)

#40

Excellent point Doug, that's why the arguement about not mixing politics into the Olympics rings so pathetic and hollow. If the IOC didn't want politics to be mixed in then don't pick a country with such a horrid human rights record! They made it politcal by picking China quite frankly!

Maybe Gregory should organize a nude pro-Hamas mini-marathon. That should make him feel better.

As someone put it earlier in this comment section, though with a different point of view, what we need to do is indeed grow up. Growing up, in my mind, entails understanding the world as it really is, and step out of our little bubbles. As I see it, nothing -nothing- not even the dreams of athletes compares to the crushing suppression of human rights committed by China. If the Olympics are indeed supposed to represent a celebration of the the global community, then the vocal and public dissent of these Olympics is an amazingly honorable thing to do. Standing up for the moral cause can certainly make a difference. To think otherwise is to admit hopelessness. I don't ever intend to be that cynical.

Chris O if you really think that you need to get outa the house. Try visiting China for starters. Not to sound like your parents but you will be shocked at how good it turns out you have it. The day you do you will think of this post I bet.

The other thing is: who cares other than the athletes? The Olympics have become a cheapened, corporatized marketing event.

Of course the Olympics should be free of "politics" but the NEVER have been. Hitler knew better in 1936, fans who chant "USA,USA" do also. The Chinese wanted to use the Games to "show off" their "new" country, its "democracy" and progess. They got what they should have expected and probably did, given the police protection they have provided for the torch
No boycot now, LET THE POLUTION IN BEIJING SHOW THE WORLD THE "NEW" CHINA

The Olympics are passe. They have always served a political purpose, whether it be democrats against fascists or us against the commies. It's evolved to a corporate extravanganza, almost a World's Fair for greater America(the world). The athletes are no longer pretending to be amateur. There's always some form of cheating going on. So the answer to the question is, it doesn't matter, it's a TV show. Watch if you don't care, boycott otherwise. Don't watch it and it will go away. It's had a long full life. Nike!

It is ironic that attempting to extinguish the Olympic flame is seen as a symbolic blow for human rights. The creation of the flame relay began during the 1936 Berlin games by Hitler as a symbol of aryan supremacy.

It amazes me that we always say "never again" when speaking about the holocaust but at the same time people are arguing that we shouldn't disrupt a sports event to make a political statement against the genocide that China is helping by supporting the Sudanese government not to mention the human rights abuses against the people of Tibet not to mention China's own citizens.

This is a no-brainer...sports vs. putting pressure on China aid and abet genocide? SPORTS SHOULD LOSE THAT ARGUMENT EVERY TIME!!!!

As for "what does the torch have to do with China? " duh...it's a symbol...protests often employ symbolic actions. Another no-brainer. Boycott the genocide olympics! I applaud the protestors who went after the symbol of the genocide olympics and I hope the same happens in San Fran! NO GENOCIDE OLYMPICS!!!

I don't really care. I lost interest in the Olympics in the early 90s. It's just a venue for big business to take over what was a good idea gone wrong as is often the case when taken over by corporate interest (read greed) and run by a select incestuous organization of former fascist leaning thugs. I feel sorry for the athletes who don't get the proper credit due them. They are used.

I think at least part of the blame for this situation lies with the IOC. We have to face facts. The Olympics ARE (and always will be) a political coup for their host. The games bring international prestiges and an influx of tourists. The IOC should have expected that picking a host with a questionable human rights record would attract protesters. If they didn't want politics to interfere with the sports, they should have picked a less controversial host country.

Paulo,
Please don't generalize about the "Chinese diaspora". As part of the "Chinese diaspora" I do not see criticism of China to be criticism of the Chinese people. And I would love to be among the protestors today. I actually have the opportunity to protest today (but will not, because there are only so many white guys with dreadlocks I can stomach seeing in any given period of time, thus I avoid SF protests.)
I don't know how many Tibetans the Chinese have killed. But it is commonly accepted by sinologists like Orville Schell that, while in power, Mao killed over 70 million Chinese. And now the rise of China's middle class is impacting the world's food supply. China is a complex, delicate issue, with a non-complex, non-delicate fascist government.
On the other hand, if I don't protest my own U.S. government's incompetent, ill-strategized actions in Iraq, it's a bit odd to protest China.

What is is April 1st again? It is laughable (really cry-able) to talk about a US boycott of the Olympics. PEOPLE: The US is no longer interested in human rights. Remember the Geneva Conventions? Remember the laws against torture? Remember extraordinary renditions? Have you heard of Guantanomo? How about the blatant violation of international law with the unprovoked attack on Iraq?

WE are going to boycott based on human rights?! That's pretty funny.

Yao states: "Megan, please go back to read some book or reliable academic paper before spreading out lies. Your argument about Tibet is based on one side propaganda from Tibetan Seperationists. for starters, Tibet had 1.2 million people at 1950s. It's basically impossible to kill 1 million of them. Seriously, wake up. read"

Yao: I have read. For starters: There are no reliable estimates of the population of Tibet from the 1950s. Seriously.

Thank you Mike.

These Olympics are our one chance to get any

information out of China at all, as the Tibetans well know. Engagement or Isolation? This ( Olympics 09) is the test.

David is not wrong about the Chinese people perceiving the protests as being anti-Chinese rather than anti-Chinese government.

I am Chinese, and while I support the furthering of human rights in Tibet *and* China, it's hard not to take the protests as a personal slap when people are chanting anti-China slogans. Instead of "shame on China," why not "shame on Hu Jintao?" The Chinese people have suffered at the hands of their government just as much as Tibetans, but no one seems to care about that. This is why many Chinese people are against the protests.

Yes, boycott and protest the Olympics! It's no longer primarily a sporting event, but a giant advertisement for corporatism and consumerism.

I firmly believe that the U.S. should boycott the Olympics this year.

David why is my Chivas missing?? Come to my office at once!! And don't worry...

David states: "the western media is full of biased articles about people against china, but never will they interview people who support China and tibet. is that free speech ? it's totally manipulated progaganda only with better skills"

David, you are right: the western media is filled with biased articles. The strength of it is that all opinions can find their way into the western media. Even yours. Differenct ideas and perceptions can be discussed. In contrast, the Communist Party controls what information the Chinese people have access to. Perhaps the Chinese in the west react so defensively to the western media because exposure to this multiplicity of views comes as quite a shock.

David -- so what do YOU suggest as a solution to the problem?

I think that's what democratic and non-democratic people alike are waiting to hear.

Just don't tell us to ignore what you admit is a problem. If the Chinese govt. can fix it peacefully, and soon, then great.

Yao - China also is known for a wee bit of propoganda too. And supression of free speech and other wonderful examples of tyranny.

Or is that all is Tibetan Seperatist "lies" too?

Just wondering.

David - sorry you don't want "us" to tell you what to do.

That's what happens when a country opresses people. People don't like injustice and they tell you what to do.

This how the grown-up world works.

tibet students, like all other 50 enthnic minorities students in China enjoy many privileges, like lower college entrance grade. and we have special cantines at universities for musilins. In France, nobody cares about what arab people eat, and they made the girls stop wearing scarfs. in the end they are the model of human rights ! what a shameless asshole

David where are you. Probably the chinese embassy in paris.

the western media is full of biased articles about people against china, but never will they interview people who support China and tibet. is that free speech ? it's totally manipulated progaganda only with better skills

Of course China has human right problem
but we don't want you to tell us what to do !!
look at the comments from the internet, the western people are not just against the chinese government, but actually against the chinese people.
that's why all the chinese around the world are united to protect the god-damn torch !

I think one of the problems is that the Chinese diaspora see the criticism of the Chinese government as being anti-Chinese (and indeed for some people it might be). Many of those critical of the Chinese government, however, are critical because they don't like seeing more than a billion (Chinese!) people under the rule of a repressive regime.

I think there's very few people within the movement who are genuinely worried about China taking over their own countries and thus being a direct threat to them as they are worried about the rights of the people IN CHINA.

Gregory states: "I find it so blatantly hypocritical that all these people protesting, Chinese action in Tibet are the same ones supporting the Israeli occupation and activities in the Palestinian territories. Maybe because I am not and American I am able to see outside of the news coccoon that most Americans are locked into"

Gregory: Maybe because you're not American you don't realize that the USA is a big country. Not every American supports the Israeli occupation (for that matter, not all Israelis do, either) and why would you think that the samll number of Americans who even have a strong opinion about the Israeli occupation are protesting against the Chinese occupation of Tibet?

While I don't condone physically impeding the progress of the Olympic torch, I do feel this this the appropriate place for protest.

As for other statements that the games or the torch should not be politicized: WRONG! China wants to use the Olympics and the torch to state that it has arrived as an economic and political super power. The protesters want the Chinese to know that the world still has serious concerns that China is little than a totalitarian dictatorship leading brainwashed masses. China has as much respect for human rights as North Korea does.

test and grades are needed to assess if the student has learned, for both the student and for the teacher. A curve of class performance gives the teacher a mean to determine average performance for the class. The composition of each new class requires a reassesment of ability and capibility of the class. The collective information of capible teachers has value in determining cirriculum for each school. The overall quality of the teacher body determines school performance.

Megan, please go back to read some book or reliable academic paper before spreading out lies. Your argument about Tibet is based on one side propaganda from Tibetan Seperationists.
for starters, Tibet had 1.2 million people at 1950s. It's basically impossible to kill 1 million of them.

Seriously, wake up. read

Yes, David.

A stronger tyrannical China is a "threat" to the Chinese people, to the West and to the East.

BORED - indeed, the sheeple have had the wool pulled over there eyes...and the real way to get to people is to continue to educate them about the what China today really is and the persecution and struggle of the Tibetans.

i am chinese and i totally understands why the western countries want to make trouble in China. Actually i would do the same if i were you. coz a stronger China is a "threat " to all of you, according to your theory. so let china grow, so we can become your market and nurture your people. but not too strong

@ Megan you are right that its not just games and your comments about the 1936 olympics is spot on. We know why the elite in our world are willing to look the other way. My problem is the reaction by regular people who seem to care more about games and don't want to see protest.

For those who believe that the it's only "games", it's worth reflecting on the 1936 Summer Olympics in Berlin. Although the bid was won before the Nazi Party gained power in Germany, some leaders in the government saw the Olympics as an opportunity to promote their Nazi ideology. Hitler was convinced by Joseph Goebbels to allow the games to take place in Germany. Preparation for the games started in the early 1930s. Hitler used the Olympics as a tool for propaganda.

By allowing only members of the "Aryan race" to compete for Germany, Hitler further promoted his ideological belief of racial supremacy. Although Germany won most of the medals in the Olympics, other athletes, such as African-American athlete Jesse Owens, who won four gold medals, showed great athleticism through performance.

Hitler removed signs stating "Jews not wanted" and similar slogans from the main tourist attractions. Hitler desired to clean up Berlin, the German Ministry of Interior authorized the chief of Berlin Police to arrest all gypsies and keep them in a special camp. Nazi officials ordered that foreign visitors should not be subjected to the criminal strictures of anti-homosexual laws.

Sue -- according to an NPR commentator earlier today the Olympic Torch ceremony began in 1936 with Hitler -- ending the ceremony or contextualizing it might be historical but change is not always bad -- esp. when it leads to something good.

Brave Tibetans for their patriotism, given what will happen to them once the Olympics are over.

Hypocritical Bushies for ignoring this opportunity, when given this unique circumstance allowing them (us) to take a position virtually without political or financial penalty.

These next few months -- this Olympic Season -- can only be considered the true litmus test of whether our interesting experiment, started by Clinton, of "engagement" really works.

I'd suggest we "no-show" the opening and closing ceremonies but let our athletes compete in the actual games.

I also hope that some gold medalists, regardless of nationality, wave high a Tibetan flag.

I'm not going to dignify the Tibet-Palestine debate, but on the main point:

Why is it that the hosts of the Olympics are allowed to turn the Olympics into a platform for their political ideology and use it as shield from criticism? The host countries get to use the Olympics for political gain without criticism. Yet it's called "opportunistic" for people to protest that government's brutal conduct when they're preparing for the Olympics.

There is no such thing as an apolitical Olympics. Don't kid yourselves.

The IOC ruined the Olympics when they selected a repressive regime to host the Olympics which I ASSURE YOU was done for political reasons.

HOWEVER... the Tibetan protesters have gone completely nuts. Attacking athletes is just wrong under any circumstances. Sure, they may have gotten a lot more press than they would've otherwise, but how many moderates have walked away from their cause as a result?

I have heard nothing substantive from either side to be honest. I've heard unfounded slogans from the pro-Tibet crowd and arguments that smack of hypocrisy and outright lies from the pro-China people.

BORED - you are 100% correct.

But it isn't just games - it's billions of dollars of China trade.

Follow the money.

Its sad when people care more about Games and torch relays then human rights.

This is a preemptive reminder: please remember to stay on topic to the question posed above. Thanks!

-BL Show-

Palestinians have none of these characteristics. There has never been a Palestinian country, never been a Palestinian language, never been a Palestinian ethnicity, never been a Palestinian religion in any way distinct from Islam elsewhere. Indeed, “Palestinian” had always meant any individual living in the geographic area called Palestine. For most of the first half of the 20th century, “Palestinian” and “Palestine” almost always referred to the Jews of Palestine. The United Jewish Appeal, the worldwide Jewish charity that provided the nascent Jewish state with much of its money, was actually known as the United Palestine Appeal. Compared to Tibetans, few Palestinians have been killed, its culture has not been destroyed nor its mosques looted or plundered, and Palestinians have received billions of dollars from the international community. Unlike the dying Tibetan nation, there are far more Palestinians today than when Israel was created.

I love how Israel-bashers like "Gregory" always find a pretext to sling their mud - whether it's China and the Olympics or something else.

Consider the facts: Tibet, at least 1,400 years old, is one of the world’s oldest nations, has its own language, its own religion and even its own ethnicity. Over 1 million of its people have been killed by the Chinese, its culture has been systematically obliterated, 6,000 of its 6,200 monasteries have been looted and destroyed, and most of its monks have been tortured, murdered or exiled.

What does the torch have to do with China. If people want to protest they can do so without attacking the torch and the people carrying it. These are acts of terrorism.

It's disgusting. Good God, can everyone please grow up?! A few jerks are going to bring about the end of the Olympic Relay, I just know it. Mark well, everyone, you are witnessing history. Never again will the flame travel the world before the opening of the Games. And for what? To what end? Who will be proud?

I hope they're happy.

Can we please think about the athletes? Leave politics out of the Olympics. Boycotting accomplishes nothing but the ruination of dreams, aspirations and years of yard work of thousands of athletes and will make not a particle of difference in the issue at hand. If INDIVIDUAL political leaders want to make a statement, personally boycott and not put in an appearance, fine. But don't ruin it for the athletes who have worked so hard and sacrificed and want to compete in a global, communal arena of goodwill. It's about the GAMES.

I find it so blatantly hypocritical that all these people protesting, Chinese action in Tibet are the same ones supporting the Israeli occupation and activities in the Palestinian territories.Maybe because I am not and American I am able to see outside of the news coccoon that most Americans are locked into.