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There were a number of books mension, concerning the use of "the children of ham" to justifice the enslavement of blacks. Please send me a list of those books.

>>One must suspend rational thought to accept that the "Book of Mormon" . . .

One must suspend rational thought to think that these internecine battles amongst arrant superstitions have any depth whatsoever beyond their popular and political impacts.

Which sect believes 14 angels can dance on the head of a pin and which believes the number is actually half of infinity makes no real difference -- neither supposition is at all supportable via secular evidence. In fact, that's why we call them "faiths." The whole point is that a religion's teachings may only be supported BY FAITH. You are that much more holy in that you _believe_--even in the face of non-support by secular science.

So you go ahead and believe what you feel impelled to believe--just don't get all fancy and up in airs about it. I.e., get over yourselves, and leave everybody else alone.

Even ignoring (or accepting) the controversial (if not blatently fraudulent) origins of Mormonism, we should examine what Mormons believe.

Controversy here too, like this, regarding blacks:
2 Nephi 5:21 "And he had caused the acursing to come upon them ... wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

Joe

To make the argument here, "Well, I wasn't taught that [difference].", doesn't help anyone, especially you!

With just a tiny bit of work, one can find lengthy documentation of the differences between the beliefs (theology) and practices of Mormons and Christians written by leading secular academics and Christian clergy. NO respected academic or clergyman would assert that Mormons are Christians. Only Mormons who wish to conflate their faith with that of Christians do!

Why might Mormons (especially one running for POTUS) want to do this? To lend authenticity to a highly controversial faith. One must suspend rational thought to accept that the "Book of Mormon", the "Book of Abraham", and other key Mormon texts as anything more than 19th century fabrications by a clever, convicted fraudster, Joseph Smith. This too, is very easy to learn with a little effort.

in response to truestakes - growing up LDS I never heard that Jesus even had one wife let alone several, nor was I ever taught that jesus was physically concieved - just the opposite. We were taught that Jesus saved all mankind all we had to do was to accept him as our own personal savior part of this process was baptism - is that so different. As for Satan's brother yes but only because in the spirit world before birth we are all spirit brothers and sisters. Here on earth we refer to fellow church members as brother and sister. To place a line between Christians and LDS seems odd to me. I see more similarities than differences.The LDS are just another variant in a pool of many.

on one of Alma's comments i know of at least one congregation that was not overjoyed at the change in policy -- I cannot speak for the rest.

I wanted to add to my comments made on the show today.

Having been raised LDS in the 70s when the Church changed its policy regarding race and the priesthood the feeling at home and in our ward (congregation) was that the change was being forced from outside. I was very young but remember some talk about a young African American boyscout in one of the Church's troops that was suing or about to sue the Church for its racist policy. He could not be an Eagle Scout because he did not hold the priesthood. There was a worry the courts would force the change. How can we have this conversation without bringing up gender bias in religion. How many candidates support churches that systemically exclude women from the highest curch offices. How many American's beliefs on gender and social roles stem from their religious ideology? The taint of bigotry extends beyond Mitt, the LDS or the Republicans. I hear Obama travels with a rabidly homophobic minster -- how is this turning the page and not business as usual? Then we have Mr. Edwards excusing his prejudice and opposition to same-sex marriage based on his southern upbringing and baptist roots. Those who think gender and sexuality are not relevent to this conversation illustrate how acceptable some forms of prejudice are. Once enlightned tradition can never be a rational excuse.

Whether one believes the substance of their faith (Bible, Talmud, Book of Mormon) is a question of faith, indeed. But it is a question of FACT whether or not Mormons share "Christian belief". They don't.

The Main Stream Media is trying to sidestep it by claiming that it is only the "evangelicals" who consider Mormons non-Christian. Baloney. The Vatican -- representing 1.1 billion -- Christians states it flat out. As do the Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, and Baptists.

Political correctness rules, but claiming that something exists doesn't make it so! Only the Mormons insist they are Christians -- funny thing, Scientology, has a cross symbol too. Check it out.

That divide is particularly sharp for Christians due to the following:

Christians believe
- Jesus was conceived supernaturally
- no indication Jesus was married
- Satan is a fallen, created angel
- Jesus always was, is, will be
- Trinity is one God
- Jesus saves!
- personal relationship with Christ
- grace key to salvation
- Gospel is everything

Mormons believe
- Jesus was physically conceived
- Jesus has several wiveS
- Jesus was Satan brother(!)
- Jesus was created
- Trinity are three Gods
- Jesus (and others) might save you in most instances
- personal relationship to Christ false
- faith, works, baptism saves you
- Gospel plus lots of other codified stuff

Mormonism is a sharp divide from Judeo/Christian theology & tradition.

Christians believe (Judaism, too)
- one God (monotheistic)
- God is unchangeable, always was, is, will be
- God omnipresent/omnipotent spirit
- God stands alone
- Adam was only a created man
- God created Man
- Man will always be man
- Adam's sin caused Man's physical/spiritual death

Mormons believe
- many Gods (polytheistic)
- God was once a man
- God has flesh and bones
- God has wiveS
- Adam was this world's God
- Man was pre-existing
- Man can become God
- Adam "fell" upward, not sinful

Does anyone see a problem with dictating to a private organization what their membership rules are? Two little things called right to peacable assembly and freedom of religion kind of blow this discussion to bits. (And I think the Supreme Court ruling on the Boy Scouts backs me up.) Brian doesn't seem to realize that private organizations have the right to exclude anyone on any basis. Likewise, churches have all sorts of government leniency regarding behavior, like circumcision, animal sacrifice, peyote sacrament, no property tax, etc., that others find appalling. By what constitutional right can we tell any church how to operate?

I think it was great that Brian hosted this discussion with two very articulate panelists.
I wanted to answer one question brought up by Brian that was not fully answered: Are Mormon Missionaries cut off from their families during the 2 years they spend on a mission?
NO. They are encouraged to write home at least once per week by email or snail mail. They are allowed to get as much mail as their family will send them---this includes food, clothes, whatever the missionaries may need. They are allowed 2 phone calls/year. Mother's day and Christmas, although I know of situations where more phone calls were allowed (sickness or death in the family). My husband served a Spanish speaking mission in Los Angeles 1982-84. He said it was the defining time of his life. He learned to serve and love people from very different cultures, as well as strenghten his own character and faith and speak spanish fluently. All things that have helped him in his adult life. Did he miss his parents? Yes, but he had great correspondence with them during that period. Something most 19-21 year old boys don't have with their parents.

On the race issue---There is a thriving Mormon Chapel in Harlem. It would be interesting if Brian actually went there.

re: "Mormons have some very clear ideas about this -- ones different from other faiths, particularly Judeo/Christian."

To be clear -- Judeo/Christian carries the implication of being based on the Old and New Testament, no? So, includes Mormons.

My question was one Brian Lehrer attempted to ask but which was sidestepped in an only marginally effective manner: Is there actual text from which the "myth" of Seth's descendants is derived in the Old Testament? Keeping in mind -- the early Jews were Semites
and tribal; likely some of them had flatter noses and darker skin...Just sayin'.

Yes, celebrating the United States of America... even when they referred to it as the Great Evil in the East and prepared for Holy War against it from their theocratic stronghold where people were not allowed to own property or vote free of intimidation.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

This is starting to sound like "some of my best friends are...." Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.

There are African American players on the BYU football and basketball teams. I guess we're only a curse OFF of the playing field.

I really feel for any African American who gets wrapped up in religion. It is merely an extension of slavery. It's coerced assimilation.

Yes, simply allowing black priests is only solving one part of the problem... I mean, they have had attitudes and policies towards blacks that would've made some of the worst segregationists say "Wow.. that's harsh." So if they allow black priests, does that mean they have also accepted blacks as equals?

Mormonism hasn't spread in Africa of its own accord: Mormon missionaries still go there to profess that their religion is better than those of Africans.

Andrea,

Well in the end I agree with Hitchens 100% too, but it is relevant if white suprmacism is unmistakably written into the doctrine as opposed to doctrines which can be twisted into different ways but do not explicitly say certain things. Not everything is equal, but I agree with your greater point

Where do Amish come into play?

THough the Mormons were more out front with excluding Blacks I don't think any religion in the West has clean hands on the race issue. Historically the Christians were enthusiastic slave holders. I agree with Christopher Hitchens - religion poisons EVERYTHING.

Left of Center,

Excellent point...I was thinking the same thing. He wasn't a kid when this changed in the church, so he was raised with this racist doctrine. So what are his feelings on race and race in regards the history of this racist religion he embraces so much. Again...I wish we had a responsible media that would ask these extremely important questions.

Kudos to you Brian for doing a piece on this when noone else is talking about it.

Alma and others, sorry. After listening to it another 20 times ... maybe I can hear "thy" or "our"! Maybe I am growing hard of hearing!

Nonetheless, what got me interested in the first place is my desire to understand what exactly Momons believe about the NATURE OF MAN, which is central to this disccusion. Mormons have some very clear ideas about this -- ones different from other faiths, particularly Judeo/Christian.

Alma,

That is very interesting. However if the media were responsible, they would be asking these questions and pressing him on his thoughts and i could hear whether he was "overjoyed" from his own mouth. i can't really go on your "suspicion". But that is interesting.

However, if one of the above comments is true that they never repudiated the doctrine but rather said the "curse" was lifted...that is STILL disgusting and racist as it means there was a "curse" and they did not completely disavow it...so it means virtually nothing in that case. and if that is true, it sounds like a compromise of sorts between changing with the times and appeasing a mostly racist membership.

I only think this topic is relevant in terms of how Romney relates to people of color and his morality as a person.

As far as I know, he never questioned or protested this racist doctrine and the policy it supported. Romney was 31 years old at the time the Church lifted the ban which means that for a significant portion of his adult life he accepted his church’s teaching that blacks are inherently inferior.

What - if anything - has Romney done to reach out beyond his personal inaction or to disavow a religious belief he spent 30 years supporting?

Btw, I don't there is presently any Black leadership in the LDS church ... strange.

There was an African American Mormon character on "House" for much of this season.

ab, Mitt's father, Gov. George Romney, actively lobbied LDS Church leaders to change the policy restricting African blacks from full membership. When the change finally came, Mormons embraced it energetically. While I don't know Romney personally, I suspect he was overjoyed along with practically all other Mormons at the Church's 1978 announcement.

Alma

I did -- at your behest -- listen to it again. About ten more times! He does not use "thy" at all as you (wishfully?) suggest. He says "our".

Mormons believe a number of things relating to their own divinity and perfectability, setting themselves apart from Judeo/Christian tradition and theology. ...certainly, this colors their view of other people(s).

By the way; if anyone needs a present day view of what previous LDS doctrine was, just read up on the teachings of Warren Jeffs, the "prophet" who is in prison now for assisting in the rape of an underage girl. His church was a splintered branch of the mormon church, and they still approve of polygamy and racism.

M... exactly.

it was official church policy from Brigham Young up until 1978.... 1978! They downplay that so much. The churches offical policies until that ancient time of 1978 was explicitly racist, and to this day they (the church) won't say that their previous position was wrong, they'll only say that the "curse" was lifted.

I agree the guest is trying to blunt this by ignoring the fact that these ideas were encoded into their doctrine...that is the problem.

blah blah blah blah blah, that the garden of eden is/was in Missouri kinda says it all not to mention the gold tablets story. I think the South Park episode on this was the best history on it that I've ever seen.

I have to commend you guys on being among the ONLY people in the media who are dealing with this glaring issue regarding Mitt Romney as a presidential president.

How can a person who is part of a religion which such disgusting racist ideas be the president of a multi-ethnic country when he is supposed to represent all the people? I would like to hear Romney's thoughts about the white supremacy that is part of their traditional doctrine. Does he flat out reject it? Would he give us a slippery answer on it?Embrace it? Unfortunately I'll never know because the mass media is too cowardly to expose the Mormon churches racist white supremacist ideas and delve into this very important issue let alone hold Romney's feet to the fire about it.

True Stackes, try listening again to the video. Mitt said, "We thank thee for the birth of _thy_ Son." Mormons often use the archaic forms of speech in prayer. He was referring to Christ as God's Son, not Mitt's.

Difference is that with Mormonism, racism was encoded in church teachings as official doctrine and policy.

The resident experts are attempting to blunt the impact of this by emphasizing that the Mormon church was only reflecting the racism of the day.

Over on Mitt’s website, mittromney.com, there is a 13 minute video entitled “Ann Romney, Christmas 2006″

I watched it earlier today and have had a strange feeling thereafter that something was strange, ackward. It’s bothered me all day, and I finally figured it out. At about 4:55 there is a prayer that Mitt leads when the family sits down for (Christmas?) dinner. “We are thankful on the occasion of the birth of our son,” he says. When I first heard this I thought, great, that’s nice, Mitt and family have had another birth in the family to celebrate add to his five sons and 10 grandchildren. But no, that is not what he meant!

Mitt was referring to Jesus Christ as his (own) son!

I have never heard, in my lifetime, a Christian prayer in which Christ is referred to as one’s own son — yours, mine, ours, or his!. It is not Christian belief. Christians do not believe they are DIVINE, only that they share in God’s essence, through his grace. The more you pay attention to Mitt, the more the incongruities pop out.

Most Christians — and Jews, Atheists, and secularists, I am sure — would be very interested to hear what Mitt (and Mormons) actually do believe about Jesus Christ AND THEIR OWN GODHOOD. I know I would.

Hi.
(As an aside, I actually have a PhD from Claremont Graduate University. - in Information Systems – and was visiting there last week.) However, the points I'd make for this show is that:
1. There is no good scientific definition for what we would call "race" in our common language. An individual "white" person and individual "black" person may easily have more DNA in common with each other than two persons that are "black" or to persons that are "white". Even diseases that sometimes seem associated with a race - such as sickle cell anemia - are often more closely associated with geography (in this case the Mediterranean region). So since we have no way of defining race in a scientifically meaningful way, it is probably impossible to determine racially based qualities. Skin color is simply skin color just as blue eyes are blue eyes.
2. There is no real understanding of what “intelligence” actually is. When we take an “intelligence test” the score doesn’t seem to correlate very well with anything except ability to do well in school. So it isn’t clear that we really know how to define or test for “intelligence” either.

Thus, since we can’t scientifically determine what race a person belongs to and we don’t know what intelligence is, it is pretty hard to say that one race is more or less intelligent than another.
Stan